HIStalk Interviews Kevin Daly, President, Zynx Health

Kevin Daly is president of Zynx Health of Los Angeles, CA.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I’ve been in healthcare for about 25 years in different segments. I started my career at Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Massachusetts. I spent a number of years at McKesson, both on their payor focus and then their hospital focus in software. I was a partner at Milliman for about 10 years, working on their Milliman Care Guidelines. I joined Hearst about four years ago. In January 2016, I was offered the opportunity to lead the Zynx group, which is one of the foundational companies of Hearst Health.

What’s the level of maturity among health systems in using evidence-based order sets and guidance?

I always represent that I’m not a clinician. My joke is I play one at work, but we can’t say that in the media. [laughs] Maybe the adoption is there, but what’s the use? Have hospital systems and post-acute organizations received the full benefit of evidence-based medicine and what it can actually do? I think the data shows that we still have a lot of opportunity to do some work in that area.

The core foundation of how Zynx started X number of year ago out of Cedars-Sinai was standardization and variation of care. That led to that evidence-based medicine and how it can be rolled through systems.

Now that health systems have in most cases implemented EHRs, are they still using ZynxOrder to maintain order sets and assemble external evidence?

ZynxOrder and ZynxCare are the foundational content or product offerings that help manage patients across the continuum. They’re actually still quite relevant. The question becomes, what next? Now that we have this solution, how can we continue to enhance it, build upon it, and then ultimately get to that nirvana of using clinical decision support in the optimal way?

As you think about where Zynx has been, we’ve been tremendously successful in pivoting in different ways around that concept of standardization and variations of care. Those two product offerings, order sets and plans of care, were extremely helpful. They’re still very helpful and relevant, but we’re looking at how can we continue to grow with some other offerings that the market needs.

Companies are taking guidelines from professional societies, like the American College of Radiology, and creating real-time decision support ordering guidelines. Are they competitors to Zynx or will you incorporate that kind of guidance into your products?

As you think about what Zynx does, it’s clinical content at the core. It’s how we look at the evidence and different types of data. We synthesize it and we bring it forward.

Some of that technical functionality that some of these standalone organizations are bringing actually resides within the existing EMRs. Is it as perfect? Is it as strong? Is the graphical user interface as nice? Maybe not, but that functionality still rests within most of the EMR vendors. We’re partnering pretty tightly with them to continue to keep our content in that forefront.

What’s the overlap in products or strategies among Zynx and the other Hearst Health offerings?

Greg Dorn is the president of Hearst Health. He was one of the co-founders of Zynx along with Scott Weingarten. There’s Zynx. There’s First Databank, or FDB. MCG, previously Milliman Care Guidelines, which is the group that I was originally associated with. Most recently, we have Homecare Homebase, which focuses in that post-acute homecare setting. Then MedHOK, which is a platform that focuses around payor interactions.

The umbrella of Hearst Health gives an organization like Zynx an opportunity to leverage a lot of different domain expertise and experience. One of the comments that was on HIStalk was about some of the changes that were going on at Zynx. We have made some changes in some structures and some reorganization within Zynx, but what’s enabled us to continue to grow and innovate is that we have some resources from Hearst Health. Not just our sister companies, but the actual broader Hearst Health.

It’s pretty nice to be able to pick up the phone and speak with Anil Kotoor, the founder of MedHOK, and talk about, what are you seeing as the risk model is moving around within this particular space? It’s actually quite useful.

You’re on the sharp end of technology changes that involve things incorporating pharmacogenomics into decision support, but also changes that involve the structure of how healthcare works, such as continuity of care. How do you incorporate those changes into your products?

I always like to say the folks on the sharp end of that stick are the clinicians and the administrators trying to get it done. I just happen to be the guy who shows up with what I think is the solution that’s best for them.

When you look at all those changes, everybody likes to think that their product or their offering is the total solution. We’re a component of a lot of bigger problems. That’s where being able to leverage, for example, the strengths of FDB is helpful. We do a lot of synergistic work, particularly with our order sets and their pharmacy data. As they’re spending a significant amount of time and effort in this pharmacogenomics area, we’re able to leverage that work as well.

I’m seeing that synergy with our sister company for sure. Care teams, care management, and how our tools or our content support all the changes that are coming as the risk models change. It’s kind of interesting because from a legacy perspective, Zynx was very much focused in the acute hospital setting. We had tremendous success, that’s where all the opportunities were, that’s where a lot of the mechanisms existed to deliver our solution, namely the legacy EHRs.

Now as you think about this post-acute space and some of the opportunities that are happening there, we’re still partnering with the legacy EHRs — the standard-bearers, if you will — but there’s some new, interesting players in this space. Hopefully there will be a press release about somebody we’re working with at HIMSS that will talk about what’s a longitudinal care plan and how can you execute on it utilizing someone’s technological platform and Zynx’s content that spans the continuum. Things like that are what’s exciting to me.

What’s the future look like for Zynx?

In my view of what we need to accomplish as an organization, you have to stick with what your core competency is. Then, not be afraid to stretch and expand. But when you think about standardization and variation of care, Zynx has been extremely successful in supporting and helping the standardization and limiting that variation.

How do we take that concept and continue to apply it, across not just the acute setting, but the post-acute setting? That’s why we are thinking about the different technological mechanisms by which to deliver this content in different places along that continuum. Is that a component of partnering with an organization that’s doing alerting versus us creating a technological platform or buying someone that does alerting? It’s those facets of sticking with what our core competencies are, understanding it, and then expanding it in a way that’s responsible and reflects our continued support of our existing customers.

We have a very significant install base of users who are still looking for what Zynx has always done, which we will continue to do, but we need to make advancements. We were just recognized again by KLAS for our order sets, which is important and valuable, but where are we going in the future? There’s a product called Knowledge Analyzer where we are seeing a significant amount of opportunity to help organizations who are merging, who are trying to understand their variations in their order sets and their plans of care and other documentation, and getting back to standardization and clinical variation. How can we, Zynx, continue to support that?

Do you have any final thoughts?

Zynx products are foundational to managing patients across the continuum. We’re going to continue to support our legacy products, but we’re going to continue to grow and evolve through additional product offerings and technological innovations that the industry needs and continue to support the mission that has mattered for 20-plus years. I thank you and I thank all of our customers and everybody who’s reading HIStalk.

HIStalk Interviews Jason Mabry, CEO, Optimum Healthcare IT

Jason Mabry is founder and CEO of Optimum Healthcare IT of Jacksonville, FL.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I started my career in the healthcare industry about 10 years ago. Before that, I worked in the information technology industry. I’ve been focused for the past 15 years on consulting services and the last 10 on healthcare providers.

Along with my business partner Gene Scheurer, we started Optimum in 2012. We have built a company that has grown to over 500 consultants servicing about 75 healthcare systems nationwide. Our services include advisory, EHR implementation, training and activation, Community Connect, security, analytics, and managed services.

What consulting services are you finding are most in demand?

I’ve seen the trends and the evolution of service lines over the last 10 years. When we first started the organization, our clients were looking to us for implementation work. Implementation work was the focus and still is. Systems consolidate and form super systems. Clients are updating their EHR platforms and sunsetting old ones. That work continues.

I’m asked all the time, "Is this a short runway? Do you see this ending in the next two years?" I’ve been saying no for 10 years. All our clients are involved in some degree of implementing, optimizing, or upgrading.

Implementation work has been our bread and butter. We’ve been involved in all phases of that life cycle. From advisory services — where we assist clients with the associated cost and planning around implementing their EHR — to the implementation and build work and eventually the go-live and training.

Over the last two years, we’ve been developing services lines to help our clients prepare for the challenges they face in the coming years. The implementation piece is still there, but clients are looking to the future. They’re thinking and planning how to successfully transition to a value-based care model. They’re thinking about analytics. They’re thinking about Epic Community Connect.

Our focus and our value lies not just with providing key resources to support implementations, but working with and advising clients to proactively prepare for the future — regulatory changes, technology innovations, patient-driven healthcare choices, shrinking margins, and much more.

We’re also strongly focused on managed services. Healthcare organizations have spent an enormous amount of capital on implementing their EHR systems and understandably want to protect the investment. They’re finding, however, that the traditional means of supporting their users and systems are both expensive and ineffective. It’s getting hard for them to justify the large operating budgets being allocated for support. We’ve developed a methodology in this area that’s resonating very well with our clients.

Simply put, we do it better and cheaper. In this new space, we know it’s not good enough to say, “We can do this very well in your place, but it’s going to cost you.” We have a methodology and approach that we know allows us to do it better for less. Our leaders aren’t career consultants, but rather people who have demonstrated success and innovation inside healthcare organizations. They know an effective approach to support goes well beyond having staff who know the mechanics of tweaking the inanimate software system. We’re well aware of the expectations and complexities put upon healthcare IT leaders from inside their organizations. Our managed services method brings relief and credibility to the leaders as much as it provides line staff who do the day-to-day work.

Are you seeing hospitals holding back on implementing new products or services due to uncertainty about the Affordable Care Act?

I’m not. I see the opposite. I’m seeing clients planning for it. They, especially the physicians, are absolutely focused on that. As we transition from a transactional-based model to a financial model more focused around the prolonged well-being of the patient, we’re seeing these CMIOs focus on analytics, evidenced-based care, device integration, home health, and population health. I expect we’ll begin to see healthcare organizations looking to cut costs based on this uncertainty, and when we do, we’ll be here for them.

We recognize that providing services in this space isn’t about working with organizations with unlimited budgets. We understand the cost constraints healthcare organizations are under and our main objective is to stretch the value of their healthcare IT dollar, so they have more resources available for direct patient care efforts. Whether those cost constraints are coming from uncertainty about the future of ACA or something else, the result is the same for us — driving value for our customers.

Are any of them actually doing something with population health management?

The transition to value-base care is top of mind for almost all of our clients, from large health systems to small physician groups. Each of them is in a different phase of evolution in their journey toward patient-centered, accountable care.

We recognized several years ago that population health was going to be the next approach to improving health outcomes for healthcare providers. For us to be able to guide our clients through this period of transformation, we made a strategic decision to broaden and deepen our services in several key areas. Analytics, process improvement, and usable smart technology are some of these areas that we focus on when working with our clients in this space.

We know that healthcare providers must be able to deliver high-quality care with exceptional service at a reduced cost without burning out the providers or staff. Helping them understand their data to produce accurate, timely, and actionable information about the health of their patients, operations, and finances is critical. Next, we know that the workflows of 10 years ago in the ambulatory and acute care settings are not efficient in today’s world. So we focus on Lean methodology to establish new processes that create value for both the providers and the patients.

Finally, we understand that implementing technology that is neither intuitive nor helpful to the client does not create value. So we leverage our knowledge of the EMR and other third-party applications to adapt the technology to enable the efforts around process improvement and the ability to capture useful data. There is a huge focus right now on consumerism and technologies that empower patients to take control of their own healthcare needs. This is really exciting for us as it fits nicely into our service model and will help further value for our clients and their patients.

Are you seeing an interest in exchanging information among competing health systems?

We are. We still see some hesitancy in the marketplace. However, with the M&A activity, the need to find alternative and less-costly EHR options, and the federal regulations geared towards performance-based reimbursement, we’re seeing organizations opening up to options they wouldn’t have considered previously.

Essentially, they know they have to get ahead of this and are implementing the technology to enable it. If the power of a patient’s healthcare is going to be put back into their hands, they will begin to look for different options that best meet their needs. These may be accessing services at different locations, often out of network and often at competing locations. The patient is a smart consumer, so sharing across networks to care for the patient and not manage transactions is key. I think you’re going to see interoperability move forward at a faster pace than we’ve ever seen.

How do you see the balance of power shifting among what is arguably just four significant inpatient EHR vendors?

As a consulting company, we’re vendor neutral. However, we see two large vendors gaining a preponderance of market share. We work primarily with Epic and to a lesser degree Cerner. We support others such as Meditech and Allscripts as well. Then there are all the intermediate, peripheral, third-party vendors associated with the enterprise EHR products. But primarily, those two are the ones rising to the top on a regular basis during vendor selection. It’s no secret that a large part of our consulting staff is subject matter experts in those two areas, including our thought leaders and our line staff.

What we’re seeing outside the US is quite different based on the market. Epic and Cerner are still dominant in commercialized Middle Eastern regions and Europe, but are not yet major players in the Latin-speaking markets. This brings an entirely new set of vendors such as Philips and InterSystems that were built to support Latin speaking markets as a base language.

Is an ecosystem developing around Cerner and Epic where clients are willing to look outside their core solutions, or are those vendors are increasingly promoting those external solutions to their own customers?

Organizations have spent a lot of money on these enterprise systems, so they obviously want to get as much out of them as possible. I think most organizations have a policy of looking to their existing platform for any functionality being pursued before entertaining another vendor as an option. I certainly think these two vendors’ solutions have created a basis for an ecosystem, but there is always room for innovation and exceptions on the periphery.

From an application perspective, I think most healthcare organizations look at their EHR system and their ERP system as their two main hubs. So you have Lawson and PeopleSoft on the ERP side and we do a lot of work in that space as well. But yes, most peripheral applications run through the enterprise systems or as an adjunct to those core platforms. The idea is to drive down costs and increase integration through the use of enterprise platforms.

Are health systems that have developed innovation centers or started an incubator to create rather than simply consume technology seeing success from the time and money they’ve invested?

Absolutely. They’ve seen more end-user engagement because of it. Sometimes innovations are born out of multiple optimization cycles, but we know multiple clients who created their own innovation lab with some of their brightest clinical and technical minds. The end result is to improve the technology they’ve implemented and take the user experience to a higher level.

How has Epic’s Community Connect program touched the small-hospital and the physician practice markets?

It gives those organizations an opportunity to tap into some of the best and most technologically advanced EMRs without all the overhead. It’s a different paradigm. The hospitals themselves turn into the vendor. They have spent months and sometimes years optimizing their own system, so if you’re a recipient, you’re going to be receiving an optimized version of that instance. Epic, for example.

For those that can’t really afford to install their own instance of, say, Epic, or are too small to purchase Epic, this gives them an opportunity partner at a better cost with the hospital. Health systems providing the EMR have already gone through the pains of implementing and optimization. The receiving partner is getting all the lessons learned, documentation, tools, and best practices from the hub health system. Private practicing physicians have all the lab, radiology, and inpatient data at their fingertips allowing for immediate patient care.

As the industry moves from volume- to value-based care, accountable care organizations, and clinical integration, the need for a Community Connect model will continue to be in demand. Sharing information on one platform eliminates the need for interface development and enhances the ability to integrate clinical data.

What’s the demand for vendors hosting their own solutions?

It makes sense. These folks are in the business of providing for patients. With the information technology arm of the hospital requiring more and more investment, I think they view potential outsourcing as a solution to that.

In a particular market, you may have five or six Epic clients that have their own data centers and their own individual staff members devoted to the product. There’s an opportunity to consolidate that. There are opportunities to outsource some of that overhead and reinvest that back into the clinicians, back into the hospital staff.

As we move into the next phase, where margins may be thinner, healthcare providers are looking for ways to cut overhead. Outsourcing is a way to do that. A number our clients are listening to the conversation around managed services, such as a hosted data center or application support.

What was the single most important change you saw in the consulting business last year and what do you think it will be in the next year?

Last year as health systems moved past the large-scale EHR implementations, we saw a noticeable uptick in services involving optimization, data governance and analytics, ERP, managed services, and security. I believe next year we still see massive growth in these same areas, but also a focus on services that help navigate the implications of MIPS and MACRA.

Do you have any final thoughts?

We are excited to be so deeply involved in this industry. Our focus from the beginning has been improving patient care and improving the patient experience. The healthcare industry is exciting because of all the innovation currently underway. Healthcare is growing up at a rapid pace.

The shift from transactions to value-based care will create opportunities for innovation. We’ve seen that in the financial services industry, where instead of going into the bank to check your balance or to move money around, you have an app on your phone. The healthcare industry is moving toward involving the patient in his or her own healthcare in a similar fashion.

We’ve been involved in multiple implementations, but it really hits home when you walk the halls during a go-live. You’ve devoted so much time to bringing this system live and now it’s finally getting turned on. You walk through the NICU and other parts of the hospital and see that patients are at the center. They are the ones affected. Everyone in our company is focused on how to make that experience better.

HIStalk Interviews Andy Slavitt, Former Acting Administrator, CMS (Part Two)

Andy Slavitt, MBA was acting administrator for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services from March 2015 until January 2017.

This is Part Two of the lengthy interview. Topics in Part One included perceptions of the healthcare system, high healthcare prices, doing a better job of explaining the Affordable Care Act, risk pools, and the individual mandate.

Experts thought high-deductible plans, which is a lot of them these days, would encourage people to become wiser healthcare consumers. Studies suggest that didn’t happen, that instead people who can’t afford to pay the deductible are avoiding getting care.

You’re right and you’re wrong. You’re right in the fact that we don’t have a functioning market that people make rational decisions because they’re paying out of pocket. You’re wrong. though. in how you’re characterizing what insurance looks like and feels like to people.

There are meaningful differences in the number of people today that say they can afford to take their medications — and do take their medications — than before the ACA. There’s meaningful differences in the number of people who report having a regular relationship with a primary care physician than before the ACA. There’s meaningful numbers of people who say they are satisfied and can sleep better at night because of coverage.

Two-thirds of policies have primary care outside of the deductible. About the same number — actually it’s more than that, it’s about 80 percent of policies, last I saw — you can get three primary care visits outside your deductible. About two-thirds have prescription drug coverage outside of the deductible. Lesser numbers,  you can see specialists and have name-brand drugs outside of the deductible. Preventive care is free. There’s a whole package of things.

By the way, cost-sharing reductions have meant that up at least until 2016 — I haven’t seen the data for 2017 — the average out-of -pocket costs, i.e. deductible and co-insurance, have declined every year slightly. They’re about flat, but they have actually declined from 2015 to 2016.

There’s this mass media perception driven by, I think, a lot of propaganda which isolates several of the stories. Particularly, again, of the middle-class people that people are paying attention to, but it’s about 2 percent of the population as a whole that’s showing these higher deductibles.

I’m not a believer that higher deductibles make people better shoppers. I do think that the package of things in the ACA — given what you said earlier, which is that we have to work on unit cost and healthcare is still too expensive — is a darned good package for people and really valuable. Because when things happen, they will have the out-of-pocket max and then they have no limit in terms of what’s covered.

It’s a really great deal. Can it be made better? Of course. Of course it can be made better if people really put the spirit to it.

Did we as taxpayers get our money’s worth in funding $35 billion in EHR incentives?

Not yet. Not yet we haven’t.

Here’s what we’ve accomplished — and I’m sure you could agree or disagree and have as much knowledge base if not more than I do on this topic — but there’s now what I call a chicken in every pot. You walk into a doctor’s office, you walk into a hospital, they have technology there. It’s not as connected as it should be, it’s not giving people the information they need. It’s not satisfying the clinicians in general. it’s not increasing their productivity. It’s probably not improving care.

But remember, before the ARRA, we didn’t even have the means to have the technology to hook up. We’re sort of like using computers pre-Internet, wondering why our factories aren’t getting more productive. We’ve got computers and it’s just basically fancy ways of writing down what we used to do in pen and paper. 

It has come some of the way. We clearly, though, have productivity breakthroughs, Moore’s Law breakthroughs, and other breakthroughs ahead of us. I don’t think anybody should lose promise in the power of what technology can do and that that investment will eventually pay off.

But if not, we need to be very honest about the barriers. We need to be very honest about what it’s not doing.

I get a little bit sickened every time I go to HIMSS, in some part, because we’ve got this massive industry that puts on a great party and has massive shows, and yet they have a customer base that is basically unsatisfied with the product. That seems like it’s where we should put all our energy.

Are incentives aligned to use technology to improve care?

You’d like to think that’s where it goes next. That’s exactly where it has to go next. If you’re an internal medicine physician seeing patients every day, people should be building things for you to help you do a better job with your patients, and that they feel and that you feel.

I just got back from a trip in Silicon Valley. I visited with some of the country’s and world’s best technology companies, and the way they do things … I mean, complex problems have been solved before. Let me give you an example.

Before TurboTax, you literally had to sit down with the tax manual and a bunch of forms and do a bunch of back and forth, back and forth, and back and forth. It took people weeks to do what you can do in like 20 minutes now. You don’t even have to accumulate your forms — for most people, they’re automatically lined up and populated. If you stacked up the IRS code, it would be over your head by double in terms of the volume of paper. They took all that, they codified it, and they put it some simple yes and no questions and preloaded all the information.

Doing your taxes now is a breeze. In fact, you’re not even focused on getting them submitted. Now you’re focused on, "How do I optimize to get my best refund?" and so on and so forth. That’s a pretty good analogy for the complexity that’s in healthcare systems.

They could have had you fill out the IRS 1040 form on the computer, typing into something that looked like the form. They didn’t. That’s what you have with EMRs. You’re basically going through and filling out a billing record instead of something that is helpful and intuitive to a doctor and a patient.

I don’t think it’s hard, It doesn’t happen for a variety of reasons, of which I’m happy to talk about, but I think that’s exactly what needs to happen.

What does your post-government career look like?

Everybody tells you when you leave the government, you shouldn’t make any decisions for 90 days. You should just take in all the incoming and hear what people have to say. I’ve already kind of violated that, I think, because we’re just in a special moment. I’m going to keep a presence in DC. It won’t be a full-time thing. I’ll announce in the next few weeks where that’ll be.

Essentially, to the extent that I can be helpful as sort of an honest broker, what we really need to do is stop healthcare from being either a Democratic issue or a Republican issue. It wasn’t great for us as Democrats. Republicans are finding it’s not great for them, either. But more importantly, the country, patients, physicians, innovators, and hospitals just will not be able to afford the back and forth and the high-risk, high-stakes nature of this. People resent having their healthcare politicized.

I’m going to do something. It will be in a more pragmatic fashion. I’ve been really doing that on the road, talking to CEOs, talking to governors, talking to people on the Hill, anybody who needs help and is working on an honest path towards a solution.

Other than that, I’m free, so I’m spending more time with my family and I’m letting the phone ring. People want to talk to me about something and it seems interesting, I’ll talk to them and see where I can be helpful. A lot of people are trying to figure out what to do next, so it’s a nice thing to be able to do to be able to help your friends when they need help. I’m in no rush to tie myself up for the next long-term thing as long as I can be helpful doing what I’m doing. I’m speaking and I’m writing and I’m convening sessions and so forth.

HIStalk Interviews Andy Slavitt, Former Acting Administrator, CMS

Andy Slavitt, MBA was acting administrator for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services from March 2015 until January 2017.

This is Part One of the lengthy interview. Topics in Part Two include whether high-deductible plans encourage wise consumer choices, the value delivered by the HITECH EHR incentive program, whether incentives are aligned for EHRs to improve patient outcomes and the provider experience, and Slavitt’s future plans.

Everybody has their own perceptions and beliefs about the US healthcare system and how it should change. How much of that is driven by personal experience that can vary widely based on income, health status, and location?

That’s a great question to start with. People would always come at us at CMS with whatever their point of view is. My warning to the staff — because you get pretty cynical because people always are representing some interest, whether it’s money, some industry group, etc. — is that everybody is right, to some extent.

If you say that there’s too much burden in healthcare, you’re right. If you say that there is too much fraud in healthcare, you’re right. If you say that we don’t measure enough, you’re in part right. If you say we measure too much, you’re right.

Then you add to that the fact that the healthcare industry isn’t really capable of changing at any great pace — and certainly not en masse at scale — and you end up having to always balance a lot of perspectives. Sometimes just moving forward in any direction, as long as it’s somewhat positive, is better than doing too much overthinking. Getting to understand what actually engages people. If they’re engaged by technology, if they’re engaged by measurement, if they’re engaged by simplicity, getting them to make progress along those fronts is going to just move things in the right direction.

Healthcare arguments always boil down to access and cost. Studies have suggested that we have a problem with high prices, not high utilization, and prices were not addressed by ACA. Will pricing pressure be applied to the health systems and drug and device companies that have benefited from having more insured patients?

Unit costs are the primary factor. You are right — it’s one we don’t talk enough about. We’re not talking as a country about prescription drug costs for a couple of reasons, and I think maybe there’s lessons in here. It has hit people extraordinarily hard. People depend on their medications and so many people are past the point of being able to afford them. Then there’s just been some really egregious examples.

I think in healthcare, for there to be a change in attention, yes, you need data, but you need stories. I think the EpiPen became a story everybody could relate to. The $50 aspirin in the hospital became a story that people could relate to.

If you talk to a serious hospital CEO or a serious pharmaceutical company CEO, they will tell you that they need to work on their unit cost and their pricing. Most serious hospital CEOs – of big IDNs, I’m not talking about serious community hospitals, I’m talking about ones with scale — have some sense that they need to reduce their cost structure by 10 to 20 percent and are working on it.

Likewise, not exactly parallel, but in the pharma industry, you have many of the big pharma CEOs who understand that around the world, there is some gating factor on prices and that they have to figure out how to strike that balance.

We can afford to get people access to care before we completely tackle unit prices. I don’t think you would wait, but I think you can use the force of more consumers and more volume. That’s what we’ve been trying to do to get people to take these issues on. They’re very serious issues and there’s plenty of resistance.

Does it sting a little bit when people blame the Affordable Care Act for higher premiums and deductibles when they might have increased anyway?

Boy, I tell you what, if I felt stung by every little criticism, I would be in the wrong place. At this point, I’m pretty calloused to that.

Let me start this way. We clearly could do a better job of explaining to people why the ACA matters to them, what the ACA is intended to do, what it means to people, and why it matters in their lives.

Seniors love the fact that their donut holes closed, but they don’t necessarily know it was because of the ACA. People who are employed love the fact that there’s no longer lifetime caps or limits on their policies, but they may not know that it’s because of the ACA. Many young people with pre-existing conditions don’t even remember a time when pre-existing conditions weren’t protected. Then of course you’ve got the millions of people who’ve gotten new coverage. They may know, but they’re not a politically powerful force.

On the one hand, I’d say that story needs to be told better, and I think people are starting to understand those things now. The other side of it is there needs to be an understanding that a law, just like a business strategy, is the first step in a process. It’s not supposed to be the end point. It’s supposed to be the first step. 

The ACA was supposed to be a launching point towards improving all sorts of things in our healthcare system. When you go through eight years, where there’s not just active resistance but an active attempt to tear down the law, to strip out funds — billions of dollars were taken out by Congress that were intended to stabilize rates and so forth – lawsuits, etc., you realize it’s harder to make progress.

As a country, we need to move past the place where one party owns health reform or the other party owns health reform. It’s just not the right kind of environment. It’s not so easy. The people now who are putting together plans, people that complained about high deductibles, you look at the replacement plans, what do they have? High deductibles. There are no silver bullets here.

President Obama told me once early on that once we pass the ACA, we tacitly agreed in everybody’s mind that everything that happens in the healthcare system from here on will be our fault. We own it. We just have to understand that there’s now a tactical place to point your concerns. Literally, if your doctor closes his office two hours early, people would write President Obama to tell him it was because of the ACA. That’s what they were led to believe.

The people insured by the ACA are a decentralized population, many of them receiving subsidies, without a lot of economic clout. However, many of the millions of people who obtained insurance via the exchange may have the financial means but don’t have an alternative because insurers don’t otherwise sell individual policies. Are the people who are ACA-insured mischaracterized as a group or are they not a cohesive enough group to convey the message that there is no alternative for them if exchange-sold insurance goes away?

President Obama has said, and I agree with him, that the ACA was a massive policy success and a political failure. If you were going to try to make this a political success, you would have focused on marginal improvements for middle and upper middle class people. 

I’ve been in healthcare for decades and a sad reality is that I could do the most brilliant thing in Medicaid policy or the most awful thing in Medicaid policy and it wouldn’t even make the newspaper. But if I did something that affects some fitness craze, it’s going to get massively covered, because people care a lot more about the programs that they can relate to. People just don’t want to read about what happens with people who have less than them.

What’s interesting– and I think this has happened since the election — is the 27 percent of Americans who have pre-existing conditions and are speaking in a more unified, loud voice. I think you’re seeing now today in Congressional town halls, in social media, and in all other kinds of events and places that people are speaking out and saying, I wouldn’t be here today, I wouldn’t have been able to have left my job and started this company today, I wouldn’t have the economic freedom today, if it wasn’t for the ACA.

There’s no pride of authorship for me, whether it’s the ACA or how it continues to evolve. It’s supposed to evolve. But the reality is that group of people is saying, if we go backwards as some are hoping or proposing, here are the consequences. I believe that’s starting to get heard over the last 60 days or so.

Insurance companies struggle to cover costs incurred by a self-selecting risk pool in which young and healthy people don’t sign up and the insurers get stuck paying for older, sicker people. How can that be fixed?

It’s a feature, not a bug. We should step back and think about this. We have never as a country, until six years ago, said to people, we will make sure you can get coverage. It doesn’t matter your financial needs. Doesn’t matter your health status. We will make sure you get access to protection. We’ve never done that. In the history of our country, we’ve never done that. A lot of countries around the world do that. We never have.

We decided to. It’s a big thing. It’s a big change. It’s a hard thing. No one should have been expected to know how many people that would be, how sick people would be.That’s why we created a rate stabilization fund that the Republicans de-funded, because no one could be sure.

The point of it all was to say, we will learn over the first few years what that costs and how to price it. In the mean time, we will get the data, we will study it, and we will look. If it turns out to be more expensive than we thought originally, we can look at that. If it turns out to be less expensive, we can look at that. We can see what kind of adjustments are needed. There are a series of adjustments that I think would help make healthcare much more affordable for that very small group of individuals that are saying “higher rates."

By the way, it’s about 2 percent. So when people talk about the rate increases and the talk about the pool and they talk about all these things, we’re talking about 2 percent of the population. We’re talking about only people in the individual market and only people that don’t receive a subsidy. Maybe 2-4 percent, not to try to be too precise, but it’s a very, very small percentage of the population.

That small percentage is dealing with rates that have grown a little bit higher because, as you say, the risk pool is a little bit sicker. There are things we can do, and if Congress or the states are willing to do those things, they’re pretty incremental. There’s no question it would work because it’s just math. It’s not anything complicated.

The individual mandate is always a question, where young invincibles or people who don’t want to pay premiums and deductibles decide not to buy coverage knowing they won’t be denied care in a real emergency. How do you address the issue of people who are willing to gamble that they won’t need health insurance?

I’s a question of health literacy. You don’t need anything until you need it. We live in a bit of an on-demand society. That’s OK in many arenas. But until you have a kid with autism, you never thought in a million years you’d need mental health services. Until you are a 30-something year old woman who gets diagnosed with breast cancer, you never really thought that was possible.

It’s one of those things that isn’t too useful to rail against it too hard. It is a mindset. Would making insurance a little more affordable or a little more flexible help? Probably, on the margin. But I don’t think you change the fundamental truth that when you’re 25, a little extra pizza and beer money is a little bit more important to you than paying an insurance premium. That’s always a reality.

That’s why you sometimes need policy. The purpose of government policy, not just health policy, is to help make laws for the collective good that aren’t necessarily good for any one particular individual. If you try to make a law that creates the flexibility that every single person gets exactly what they want, then you’re really not supporting the society as much as you need to.

Part Two of the interview will follow.

HIStalk Interviews Tom White, CEO, Phynd

Thomas White is co-founder and CEO of Phynd Technologies of Kearney, NE.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

Phynd is the third company I’ve co-founded. Two of those were in healthcare IT and one in the 1990s was in Internet real-time news search. All of the businesses that we’ve started have been focused on new categories of software that simplify and improve search, profiling, and content. The second addressed diagnostic results. Now it’s provider data for this third company.

We see an intersection of provider data being important. Historically, there have been patient systems, EMR systems, payer systems, and rev cycle systems. But there’s really never been a provider data system. We see the elevated issue of provider data being an opportunity in the marketplace.

What problems do health systems have with provider management?

Hospitals have 10, 15, or maybe 20 IT systems that silo provider data. Each system has a specific function, whether it’s radiology, lab, EMR, or credentialing. Each has a specific core function with a provider database embedded inside.

Our clients tell us they have a hard time harvesting the data across all those systems and managing the data. There’s good data in all of those core systems that impacts clinical outcomes, rev cycle, and marketing. It is buried in these systems. Our clients have problems exposing the provider data into one platform where it can be curated and managed by the organization versus being buried in these silos.

What benefits do they expect from implementing a provider management system?

On the business side, inaccurate provider data creates a significant delay in the billing cycle. The reality of healthcare is that providers from all over the country are in the databases of hospitals. A hospital in New York is going to have referring physicians from Dallas, Los Angeles, and Chicago. When they discharge the patient and invoice for that claim, they need accurate provider data to process the bill. If they don’t, it will get kicked back. We’ve seen a delay of a month to two months for up to 10 to 20 percent of our clients’ invoices because of inaccurate provider data.

On the clinical side, as hospitals have grown their physical footprint, they have added clinics in the field. They have large referring bases. They’ve created clinically integrated networks. As they have to communicate more and more — whether it’s by fax, phone, or Direct address – maintaining the data elements on the providers in the field has become difficult. We impact the clinical care process from the communications side by having accurate, good information that is curated by the client themselves.

Is it harder for hospitals to track their provider relationships under new care delivery models?

A hospital has to track 10 to 15 times as many providers as they have credentialed. If they have 1,000 providers, they’re going to need to manage 10,000 to 15,000 referring providers.

As they shift into clinically integrated networks, ACOs, narrow health networks, and narrow health plans, the provider base is going to shift. It’s not just their historical credentialed base. It’s everyone within a certain geography or target market segment they’re going after. They need to know who is in the clinically integrated network and then the specific data around their referral patterns, communication preferences, and rev cycle information.

Does having that self-curated information accessible enterprise-wide provide a competitive advantage?

It does. The end user can look at our client’s data  through their native systems, whether it’s their EMR, credentialing, radiology, lab, cardiology, or pathology systems or into their marketing platform. Also being able to expose that data on internal and external websites for provider search. Then using the UI to curate and manage the data. It’s available wherever the end user is. We think that’s a competitive advantage.

Are hospitals getting more interested in marketing the physicians that work with them via provider search?

Yes. Our philosophy is that you have to get the provider data right first. That’s the core Phynd platform. Once you have the provider data in a format that’s accurate, then you can expose that data across multiple systems, such as provider search.

Provider search matters because it helps with referral patterns. It helps with customer satisfaction. But it also grows the top line. It’s good for healthcare organizations to provide the best search algorithm environment for consumers to find the right doctor the first time.

Are physicians finding that the marketing clout of their local health system benefits their practices, such as in a hospital website’s provider search function?

Yes. The world of search is a complicated world. How healthcare organizations are creating large franchises on the web is important. That drives traffic into their clinically integrated network providers, people in their ACO, and the different organizations that they’ve created.

What business advice would you offer someone thinking about starting a company?

The first thing is that startups are really hard. In general, they’re very difficult to go do, from concept all the way to customer acquisition. They require a lot of patience and a long-term view of solving the core problem that you’re going after. That’s the first bit of advice.

The second bit is that building happy customers is a long-term approach that requires an all-in mentality. To be at the customer site, to see how they use the product, to hear the conversations they’re having with their peers. Then to communicate with them routinely thereafter. It’s about being a part of the customer conversation long term.

You need the idea to start the business, but the reality is that you pivot. Part of being a startup is you’re pivoting based on conversations you have with your clients. Finding clients that are willing to work with you and to pay you is the hardest part. Once you get those folks, you can pivot the product ideas around what their needs are.

You need the core, basic idea. Ours is that we want to simplify provider data management across the healthcare industry. How we do that is dependent on a number of factors, including our partners, our customers, and then our long-term vision as well.

Where do you see the company in the next five years?

Healthcare organizations are going through significant change. They’re driven by the opportunities to attract new patients across new locations. Their physical footprint is growing. They’re building alliances and clinically integrated networks. They’re participating in narrow health plans.

We see Phynd as a gathering point of provider data that can be used to improve clinical communications, revenue operations, provider, consumer, and web touch points across all these really big businesses that are being formed right now across healthcare. We see ourselves growing with that marketplace.

I’m not sure where the healthcare organization ends. Is it payers? Is it vendors? We’re focused on the hospital space right now. Long term, healthcare is  the biggest industry in the country. We see ourselves growing with it.

HIStalk Interviews Jay Desai, CEO, PatientPing

Jay Desai, MBA is co-founder and CEO of PatientPing of Boston, MA.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

Prior to starting PatientPing, I worked at Medicare at CMMI, the CMS Innovation Center. There I worked with a team to help implement the ACO program, bundled payments, and a lot of the other new payment models coming out of CMMI. The goal was to preserve the PPO model. No prior authorization, no utilization management, no traditional managed care control, no differential co-pays out of network, no PCP as a gatekeeper. Let patients go wherever they want to go. But risk.

Therefore, we needed to come up with an attribution model that was based on alignment, not necessarily membership enrollment. In that model, when a patient goes somewhere to receive care, you don’t really have too much control over them staying in network or even coordinating the care after they finish their episode, because you don’t know about it.

That created a major pain point for providers in this new model. A very basic problem emerged, which was, "Just tell me where my patients are” in real time — when they go to the hospital, ED, SNF, home health agency, or wherever they go. After scanning around the country and looking at the solutions that were available to providers, it felt like there was an important opportunity to build something that was focused and lightweight that could help providers know in real time where their patients are.

It seems as though it should be easy to send ADT notifications. Why wasn’t that happening already and what allowed you to turn that into a significant business?

A big part of the complexity in building this business is in the need for broad market adoption. Let’s say you’re an IPA. You get your list of patients and you want to know where they’re going. There may be 10 hospitals that represent a majority of them, and then there’s a long tail of other hospitals. On top of that, there’s 300 skilled nursing facilities, 200 home health agencies, 50 FQHCs and community health centers, a bunch of LTACs, and a spattering of other community providers. That’s a big list.

Building connectivity to all of those participants requires not only the technical implementation, but engagement and a reason to do this. You need to engage them not just as data senders or data providers. For any of those sites that’s a referral site for an IPA,  you need to engage them as data providers, but also as participants in the community to engage in the coordination of care with those other endpoints. That’s hard to do because it’s easier to sell a technology to one group and not worry about all the other places that they’re going to be a part of.

Our solution is about that. It’s about building the network, building the community for everybody to engage. Designing something that is light enough and gets broad participation and lift very quickly without being intrusive and with organizations that create constituency groups to do it was part of the challenge. How do you create something that’s elegant that still gets buy-in across the continuum of care, where sometimes there’s competitive dynamics that block information sharing, but still break down some of those barriers for folks to work with one another?

Who pays you, what sharing agreements do providers sign, and do they have to get patient consent?

There’s no cost to send the data. We only charge to receive information, what we call it pings. You pay to receive pings. That’s the real-time notifications.

There’s a lot of other bells and whistles to the service that I’m not describing now, but fundamentally that’s how it works from a business model perspective. It’s lightweight, it’s low cost, and it gets everybody in the community connected as both the sender and a receiver. You can join the community as a sender. You don’t necessarily need to receive, and in that world, it would be free.

For patient consent, we adhere to whatever the state rules are. In Vermont, for instance, we have a blacklist of patients who have opted out of data sharing and we will make sure not to share information on them. What we’re sharing isn’t very rich clinical information — we’re not sending lab results or behavioral health information. We provide the notifications. That could be on patients with behavioral health disease. The fact that they’re at the emergency room is what we would tell them, not necessarily that they’re there with a flare-up of a substance abuse issue or anything like that. The fact that they’re in the emergency room is something that we would be able to notify behavioral health providers about.

My point is that it’s a light level of data sharing. We seek consent in any instance where we have to. We have our own strict policies around how long is one considered a covered entity and how long is one considered a provider so that we’re not sharing data with people who aren’t allowed to see it.

As a provider, what’s my workflow when I get a ping?

There’s a lot of variability to how any given end user is going to act on a notification. They’re further variability in terms of the destination of where the patient is receiving care that will determine how they act on it.

For instance, if I’m an ACO care coordinator and I receive a notification that a patient is in the emergency room, a workflow may be in place to call the emergency room provider and call the patient to make sure that emergency room provider is aware of any case management services that may be available for the patient. Just to engage them in care coordination or case management upon discharge. They may also let the emergency room provider know that there are other supports for them in case they don’t want to admit the patient and want to take them out of the emergency room, to the extent that that’s an option for the patient and the emergency room provider feels like that’s the right thing to do.

If the provider receives a notification of a hospital discharge, they may initiate their medication reconciliation workflows or their transitions of care management workflows to get them in for a follow-up visit with a PCP or a specialist. If they get a notification that a patient is in a skilled nursing facility, they may have a regular rounding schedule or a clock that sets the timeline around when they should reach out to manage the length of stay at the SNF, largely to make sure that they’re supported with home care if that’s what’s required after the rehab period at the SNF. Again, that will be a function of the workflows.

They may want to make sure upon discharge that the patient is getting to the right post-acute care facility that’s part of a preferred network or deemed to be a high-quality provider. Another example is that if you’re a skilled nursing facility, your patient leaves your SNF, and you’re paying to receive the service when the patient bounces back to the ED, you would get notified. You may use the notification to call the emergency room to let the emergency room provider know that the patient is eligible to come right back to the SNF without a three-day hospital stay, for instance. That way, the emergency room provider can send them back into the community as opposed to admitting them to the hospital.

I can go through a long list of how our users are acting on the notifications. Home health agencies may go to the patient’s home on Day One to set up home care. They’ll show up on Day Three and nobody’s there because the patient’s caregiver never told the home care provider that they went back to the hospital. So the home health agency may use it to verify that the patient is still at home and that they can continue to deliver services. Or if they go to the emergency room, they can reach out to the emergency room and let them know that the patient has home care if they want to send them back out into the community.

Is it always providers who are at risk that buy your service or would it ever be an insurance company?

There are case management services that are being offered by insurance companies that want to initiate their workflows when their patients show up at the hospital and the emergency room. They may use their prior authorization processes as a data source, but a lot of times the ER data is not readily available on a real-time basis because the billing clerks for the emergency room will batch bill or do them later, so it won’t be as real time as an ADT message. We have some health plan case management services that are receiving the notifications.

In the example I gave you of a home health agency getting a ping, they’re not at risk, necessarily. They are just providing their home care services. Being able to know the patient’s whereabouts allows the home care provider to deliver a high quality of care.

Other groups that are interested in our services are homeless shelters and social service agencies that are providing case management. This is the big reason that I started this company. At CMS, a lot of our work was to bridge the community providers with the acute care setting. I worked a lot on some of the preventative services as well, around getting social supports — whether it’s housing supports or Meals on Wheels — also included within the care coordination workflows. The emergency room is a vulnerable time for the patient and an opportunity to engage them in their follow-up to make sure that they’re getting the right care.

What did Silicon Valley investors see in the company that made them want to invest $40 million?

I’d love to ask them the same question. [laughs] I’d love for you to ask them that question as well.

We are entirely mission-driven. We are maniacally focused on connecting providers to seamlessly coordinate patient care. Patients get care from a lot of providers — seven providers on average for a Medicare patient — and they’re across a lot of unaffiliated and disparate organizations. That results in a lot of cost, a lot of excess use, and redundant procedures. That’s the value of coordination.The work that needs to happen to prevent some of that redundant work is not complicated. It’s straightforward.

What we’ve done is design a solution that meets the provider community where they are, with a straightforward, low-cost, non-intrusive, easy-to-use solution that connects them in a way that they haven’t experienced in the past. We think that the investor community is excited about us bringing our services and spreading our mission to the rest of the country and we’re thrilled to be able to do that.

Of the syndicate that we formed here, Todd Cozzens of Leerink Transformation Partners is extraordinary. The folks at Andreesen Horowitz – Vijay and Jeff Jordan – are just incredible people. What we’re excited about is the opportunity to bring the best of two very different approaches to building healthcare IT businesses. There’s the Silicon Valley approach of hyper growth and product and network effects, which is a big component of what we do, but we are serving the provider community. We don’t make any allusions about the fact that the workflows are complicated. I’m a healthcare person. I’ve worked in the healthcare industry for over a decade. I’m not a Silicon Valley tech outsider coming into this industry.

I’m very familiar with businesses like the ones that Todd has built and the folks at Leerink have built. There’s a certain discipline to focusing hard on delivering a clear ROI to your provider organization customer, being very sensitive to the regulatory environment, and making sure that we are hyper focused on the integrity of our data and patient consent. Not just not trying to hack our way through an industry that is designed the way that it is for good reason. This is patients that we’re talking about. There’s a good reason for the bureaucracy. There’s a good reason for the slower processes and change cycle.

That said, there is some wisdom from the Valley around a product orientation. A real love for creating outstanding user experiences. I just love learning from the folks in Silicon Valley, specifically Andreesen Horowitz. They’re outstanding.

It is bringing together multiple worlds to create what I think is going to be a better company. There’s aspects of Silicon Valley that healthcare can benefit from, and there’s aspects from healthcare that Silicon Valley needs to learn. I think we’re going to be able to bring both of that into this organization.

How do you see the company evolving, especially if interoperability starts to encroach on what you’re doing?

I hope that we are able to see a lot more progress on interoperability. Whether it’s through CommonWell, Carequality, or some of the other efforts happening with the established networks that may exist out there doing a lot more around clinical interoperability. I would be excited if some of that work accelerated because what that means is that there’s a switchboard or a network pulling together all of these disparate systems. Network alone doesn’t solve the problem. It needs to be network plus workflow, a really important transaction that’s delivered in a way that engages the end user uniquely.

Right now, to the extent we can rent another network, we’re certainly more than happy to do that. We partner with a lot of health information exchanges in markets where they are established and stakeholder organizations that have pulled together the data. We’re very good at taking that information and bringing it to life by getting users to adopt and love and tend to lighten the experience of using our application to solve a very important problem. But in the markets where there isn’t any network that’s the chassis, we will build it, and we have done that in many markets.

Both the network and workflow need to exist for this particular problem that we’re solving to be done well. If interoperability were to make a huge amount of progress, then that would be exciting for us, to be able to help realize the vision of the problems we’re trying to solve in healthcare that interoperability will facilitate.

Do you have any final thoughts?

I think the quote is, "I would have written a shorter book if I had more time." Building an elegant solution that seems simple requires a lot of deep understanding of the constituent organizations within the healthcare ecosystem. We’re proud that after three years, we’ve been able get to this place where what we are doing works.

We’re in six states. We have 44 more to go. We’re going to connect the whole country. We’re excited to go as fast as we can and support provider organizations out there to achieve some of the aims that they have for their organizations around improving care and lowering costs.

HIStalk Interviews Hemant Goel, President, Spok

Hemant Goel, MBA is president of Spok.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I have been in healthcare IT for over 30 years. I’ve worked for some large organizations, EMR providers, and I’ve worked for imaging solution companies as well. I joined Spok two years ago.

I’m very well conversant with all of the IT challenges for CIOs and hospitals and how it helps them. How IT has helped in patient care from "To Err is Human" to where we are now with Meaningful Use and all the advancement that has taken place in contributions of healthcare IT and helping clinicians out.

Spok is a player in healthcare IT, where we provide critical communication. Things that EMRs or other systems don’t do. This is fast paced, where minutes count in getting hold of nurses, physicians, alerts, codes, and who’s on call. Our mission is to provide critical communications in a timely basis to the right people so they can react to the situation.

Biomedical devices have evolved into IT or informatics systems. Will messaging follow that same path?

Pagers are going through a transformation as the messaging industry itself changes. Encrypted pagers are out there, two-way pagers, alpha-numeric. There has been an evolution of pagers. They have their own network. They don’t rely on the cellular networks like Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint kind of networks. They are their network with broadband and low frequency, so they are more reliable.

The change is that smart phone and the smart messaging technology are taking over, but reliability is still an issue. Oftentimes you say, I sent you my message, did you get it? They say, I didn’t see anything and the phone has been sitting right here. Those are some of the things that have to get better. When reliability improves, smart phones and smart messaging apps are the future. But pagers have a place right now.

The second thing is that for some employees – like cleaning staff or food staff — hospitals cannot give them smart phones because they are too expensive. Pagers are very convenient and suffice for them. We’re finding that there is a shift in pagers to the organization employees that are more staff. Pagers can help, they’re secure, and they maintain privacy.

There are also physicians who are not willing to give up the pagers. Just like if you go back to the imaging and PACS days, it took a long time before radiologists gave up film even though PACS systems were ready. Eventually it happened. That’s exactly what’s going to happen with pagers. Eventually the technology and reliability in messaging using smart phones and cellular coverage and Wi-Fi is going to be so much better that pagers will disappear. But I think that we are at least eight to 10 years out.

What kind of documentation of messaging activity and proof of delivery do hospitals need?

It’s a combination of both hospital and vendor-provided technologies, including carriers. One of the things we find is that hospital Wi-Fi coverage and overlap coverage is very important. It has to be there and coverage well tested.

On the technology side, I’ll give you a simple example. When I fly out of Minneapolis, there’s airport Wi-Fi that my phone picks up because I do it every day. If I don’t accept the terms and conditions, it kind of gets stuck there. When I don’t get an email after a while, I realize I did not accept terms and conditions. My phone is stuck because it’s defaulting to Wi-Fi data pickup as opposed to my cellular data pickup.

We are working with the providers and technologies to say, is it possible that if I subscribe to it in a way that says if my Wi-Fi is there but I’m not receiving data, switch to cellular and inform me that messages aren’t coming through based on some of my activities that I would expect. It’s a combination of us as vendors, infrastructure providers like cellular companies and their coverage, and of course Wi-Fi coverage inside the hospital. All three of them are advancing and they’ll get better and that will make a big difference in the reliability.

I read that cell phones are used a lot more for text messaging than for making or receiving voice calls. Does that provide any lessons learned for your business?

Millennials rely mostly on messaging and very little on voice calls. I’ve got kids who are millennials and they have WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger. I can’t tell you when they decide to use what, but they use both of them. Being  curious in the IT world myself, I’m trying to figure out the pattern as to what prompts them to use which one and where.

What we have found is that for some reason, messaging applications are more utilized. Texting is more utilized. It catches attention to respond right away in the transactional moment better than if you were either to send an email or have a phone conversation. One of the reasons for the demand for messaging applications is people saying, if I have an email or task that’s important or urgent, can you also text me? They respond to that much better.

I guess there is a human factor or psychology involved, but that is indeed true. People respond to messaging and texting and they are using it more for quick, urgent transactions and not emails and phone conversations that much.

Isn’t that phenomenon a technical validation of the pager model that people dismissed as primitive? The messages are once again asynchronous and text-based, with the only real difference being that they’re now sent and received on phones instead of on two-way dedicated pagers.

Sure, but it’s the consolidation of devices that drove it. Pagers were only doing paging. You couldn’t make a phone call on them. You had to look at the pager then you had to pick up the phone. Now you can look at a pager, send a  text message, and make a call to you without having to switch my devices.

The whole world of healthcare IT is about efficiency, quick access, integration, interoperability, single devices, what everyone would want. We have also found that the saturation is more than 100 percent of devices because most people now are starting to have two smart phones, professional and personal.

But you are right that at the end of the day, it’s going back. But because you can do more with your phone and more with the app and while pagers were just doing paging, the shift is there. For physicians, nurses, and emergency responders, pager reliability is still a reason to pick it up.

Is secure healthcare message a commodity? What are the differentiators?

I’ll broaden this a little bit because a lot of CIOs and CMIOs in my network have that question, too. You get secure messaging from IMessage. WhatsApp recently put up secure messaging. There are consumer applications that do secure messaging, but they don’t do it in the context of healthcare.

Now there’s a healthcare cadre of application providers that provide secure messaging, Spok being on of them. How do you differentiate yourself? The way we are approaching messaging is that messaging is one aspect of critical communication. It’s not just for physicians and nurses. Critical alerts are another one of them. The care team coordination, to help a patient get better — that’s what everyone is driving towards.

We will all eventually arrive at the same place, just like the EMR companies did. Cerner, Epic, Meditech, Allscripts, and McKesson all had their departmental solutions and eventually became a unified electronic medical record that everyone is driving towards. You hardly find any standalone pharmacy systems now. It just won’t happen with the advent of patient safety and Meaningful Use.

There are messaging companies that do messaging for physicians or for nurses. But eventually a critical communication that encompasses all stakeholders and role-players — physicians, nurses, patients themselves, family engagement like Meaningful Use talked about, the Affordable Care Act, plus other staff engagement and clinical engagement — all that should happen in a single platform with directory accessibility to drive efficiencies and clinical outcomes.

That’s what we believe and that’s what our drive is. Not just messaging for one stakeholder, but critical communication across the entire spectrum for all role-players. I believe everyone will end up there. Then, who’s got a good mousetrap?

What is the hospital demand for EHRs and other transaction systems to drive and document communication directly instead of requiring users to send messages manually?

Interoperability is going to be huge. You mentioned earlier that texting is more common than phone calls or emails. Electronic medical records initiate some things and we should be prepared as a technology to take that initiation and convert that into transactional messages that are needed.

On the flip side, sometimes our transactional messages can drive some of the things happening in the EMR, which is a system of record. We are a transaction in time that occurs. It can be driven by an EMR or we can help drive the EMR based on certain events. When there’s an emergency and there’s an ambulance coming in to the ED, nobody has the time to sit around and take a look at the EMR. You’re stabilizing the patient, you’re calling folks out, you’re calling the doctors, and codes are being initiated.

That’s where companies like Spok come in. The code message has to go to the right nurse, right physicians, and everyone has to come there. You don’t have time to sit down or the luxury to go research or pull up all the things that are happening in the system of record. That’s a clear example of how a messaging or a paging of those kinds of transactional systems can drive the EMR. Then you can go back and do your documentation into those.

Then there are situations in a hospital where you’re in the ICU or in other areas where the EMR can drive a text message to say the patient needs to be taken to radiology. Or there’s an urgent situation and you send a code out and everyone has to show up there.

You can have both sides of the equation. Interoperability is key to make sure we provide an open enough systems that those workflows are well accounted for.

What kind of hospital communications issue negatively impact patient satisfaction?

The biggest one we hear is alarm fatigue. The alarm annoyances in the quiet hospital — which is a big hospital initiative – is one of the most important areas when you’re in the acute care setting.

The second one is waiting on staff. Lots of times you’re waiting on somebody to show up. The care teams are big and there are lots of people and you are not sure who is coming to see you when. Something as simple as you’re ready to be discharged and you know you’re going to be discharged, but it takes three hours while you are waiting on someone to come in and say, "Yep, you’re good to go." That’s a problem. Many other things, but noise and wait times are the two biggest areas that we believe need to be addressed.

A quick text message that says, "You have discharged the patient, everything looks good, here is the discharge order that we can text securely” is a great way to get the patients out and get them feeling better about going home. As alarms thresholds go off or they are about to go off, it can alert the nurse and they can come and take a look at it, that’s even better. That’s a couple examples of how patient engagement and patient satisfaction are going to be hit directly by these kind of technologies.

Do you have any final thoughts?

It’s a great time to be in healthcare. The country and our healthcare system is going through a massive change. It’s always pivoting and changing, and for the better. The infrastructure of healthcare IT is in place, EMRs are in place. Now we have to take it to the next level of wellness and outcomes that are preventive healthcare and make our experience even better and better as the population gets older. I am very delighted to be in this field, have been for 30 years. I have seen a tremendous amount of changes. I’m glad to be a part of contributing to the way we treat patients and how we make lives better. It’s a good place to be.

HIStalk Interviews Fred Powers, CEO, Dimensional Insight

Fred Powers is president, CEO, and co-founder of Dimensional Insight of Burlington, MA.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

The company was founded back in 1989. There are two founders. We have built the company organically. We have no outside investors.

We tend to focus in industries which have complex data. Our very first customer, in fact, was a dental implants company. Back in 1990, we showed them where their product was being bought and where a competitor was taking away market share.

From that very beginning, we have expanded. About 15 years ago, we entered healthcare, which is now a major focus for us. We are focused on rules and measurements so that we can bring integrity to measures so that they are accurately displayed so that decisions can be made.

What is healthcare’s maturity in using data to make decisions as compared to other industries?

In any industry, you have some that are the leaders and you have some that are bringing up the rear. The sense is that healthcare lags behind industries as a whole. I don’t think that that’s really true.

I think that the difference here is that the data itself is more complex. If you go into a distribution company, you’re basically looking at all of  finance and then you’re looking at product going into the warehouse and product leaving the warehouse.That’s one data domain, and in a typical manufacturing or distribution operation, it’s a finite number of domains.

When you move over into the area of healthcare, it becomes much more complex. Each domain by itself is relatively easy to understand, but when all of a sudden you have 50 of them, you have different stakeholders, and the data crosses these domains — that’s where the complexity comes in.

Healthcare is complex. People have been looking at this problem for a number of years. It’s just taking healthcare a little bit longer to solve some of these complexity issues that don’t exist in other industries. Certainly electronic health records have helped because we’re gathering this data. That would be a change. But if you look even at the electronic records, there are hospitals that have had that for 15 years and some that came on board only a couple of years ago.

Healthcare is getting a bad rap when people are saying that they’re way behind times. It’s just that their data is complex, in terms of all of these different domains and all of the different stakeholders that they have that they have to satisfy. If you’re going into a distribution center or manufacturing, you might only have one or two plants. If you take a look at healthcare, you might have 20 different facilities, maybe more, and all that has to be consolidated, and yet it has to be broken apart as well. There’s a challenge.

What lessons were learned from early healthcare data warehouse projects?

The short answer is that they don’t work, but that’s because you’re attempting to solve a complex problem. Quite often, you’re better off if you chip away at the problem with a collection of data marts. The concept of bringing all of this data together has been around for well over 40 years and it’s always been a problem when you attempt to bring it all together into one place.

I do believe that what’s happening with the data warehouse is it’s going to move more towards a columnar database over a relational database. The reason for that is that you have more flexibility with the columnar database than the relational. It also handles higher volumes of data. Right now, as this data is collected, you have to ensure that you have integrity throughout the process, and the more data that you bring together and attempt to digest, the harder it is for that integrity to take place. You really need to decompose the problem.

Here at Dimensional Insight, we’re using a columnar database for our storage vehicle. If you do research between a relational and a columnar, most of your research is going to come back and say that for a data warehouse-type approach, this is actually a better approach. There is a tremendous amount of momentum in terms of what was done in the past and then bringing that forward.

Just having proper data is really not the issue. You can ensure that you have integrity of data. Your bigger question is, do you have integrity in terms of your rule management? If you’re looking at, let’s say, an admission or a readmit, what are the rules for that? Are they consistent across the hospital? How do the underlying rules relate to the measures that ultimately you’re scoring yourself on? Because something like an admit is used across a whole collection of additional measures. Does your measure equal what CMS says or is your measure slightly different, your rules slightly different?

This is now an area that the hospitals are going to be looking at, where before, they were just saying, “I just have to get some data into my data warehouse.” Then what do you do with that data? How do you measure? That’s where your measures come to bear. We use the term “measures.” Some might use “KPIs.”

The underlying rules are very complex. We could probably spend another half hour just talking about rules management. I can honestly say that these rules are more complex than what we see in industry as a whole. This is going to be the big issue in the future.

It kind of fits under “data governance,” but the word here is “data.” I think it’s probably better if you were to call it “measure governance.” I’s more focused, because if you don’t have these proper measures, how can you manage? This is going to be a real issue as we move forward.

Then they have to be centralized. Hospitals today are buying a lot of what I call point solutions. Each one of these point solutions has some BI in it, some dashboards, and of course this is based on a collection of rules and measures. What happens if those rules and measures in Point Solution A don’t agree with Point Solution B? Which one is right? Do you have a central location for controlling these rules and measures? How does that affect the point solutions?

Over the next two or three years, we’re going to start to see the industry look at this and say, “I’ve really got a management issue here that I didn’t realize I had, because I was pulling the data out of my data warehouse.” Let’s assume they have a data warehouse. The rules were not in there, or if they were in there, it was just piece parts, and now all of a sudden, I don’t have integrity when it comes to those rules. This is going to be some interesting times for these hospitals. In my opinion, they really haven’t given enough thought to that.

How much help do hospitals need in understanding their available data elements and then finding low-hanging fruit to give them a faster payback?

Each hospital is in a different position. Larger systems will no doubt have some form of a data warehouse. They’re wondering how they can maintain it and how they know it has integrity. You move into a smaller hospital, they might have no data warehouse. They have no governance. Depending upon the environment you’re in, it’s going to have a difference in terms of how you approach the problem.

We have some customers that are small hospitals and they’re trying to see their data for the very first time. They’re really not interesting in doing anything that’s fancy. You know, “Just give the numbers. I’ve been blind. Show me the numbers over time so that I can at least see trends.” Then you move into a large entity and they’re interested in doing more because they’ve already crossed that threshold.

That’s another challenge that we have from healthcare. When you go over to industry as a whole, they’re all pretty much kind of at the same level, where when you move into healthcare, that’s just not the case.

Obviously, whether it’s a large entity or a small entity, the goal is to pick some problem that they have and then solve that problem. Then solve the next problem and the next problem. It’s kind of like eating one grape at a time. If you attempt to eat too many grapes at once, if you’ve got a young child, you know that that’s not a good thing. We try to avoid that.

Let’s focus on something that’s important, something that you need today, and then what data sources you need for that. Let’s ensure those data sources have integrity. What rules are required? What measures are required to support that need? Let’s make sure that’s in place.

Let’s ensure that you have the necessary support staff, which I might add, is not necessarily IT. A lot of it will be a nurse practitioner, as an example, or a doctor who has left the fold and now they’re into the analytics and they understand what’s necessary. They understand the data. Quite often an IT professional might not understand that. They’re more a technologist. You need that business manager. This is a real issue because a lot of hospitals don’t have those people.

Is the key to analytics adoption providing pre-built applications or perhaps finding a data-curious department expert or that rare technologist who wants to work with users to answer their questions?

It gets down to where are they on the adoption curve. Let’s assume that this hospital is just starting out. You want to give them a package containing a collection of measures, predominantly CMS, so that they can track where they are. Now, if it turns out that they have history — which they should have, depending upon when they converted, because quite often when you convert, you leave your history behind with the older system — they can go back and look at how those metrics have performed over the last two or three years and which way are the curves going.

Executives obviously like this a lot because they can see the trends. You’ve got to get something in front of the executive quickly, because he or she has to buy into it. They have to see value in it. At the executive level, they’re interested in a certain amount of information and they want the ability dive into the underlying detail. Then your detailed analyst obviously might want even more information, and they become what we call a diver. In other words, they can just go in and they can swim in this data however they choose to understand what they have. But without question, you need the executive.

The other thing that’s happening is herd mentality. We’ve been doing this since 1989 in a multitude of industries. Let’s say that you’ve got an early adopter and they’re doing their thing. Then you’ve got another early adopter and then you’ve got three and four and five. Pretty soon, you start to get this herd mentality, like everybody’s got to do this. That’s what’s happening in healthcare. If you went back 10 years, you still had the problem. People just didn’t recognize that they had to solve the problem.

Now you have a certain amount of herd mentality. “Oh, they’re doing this at this hospital. That’s pretty cool. I think I have to go do that.” You can’t leave the emotion of the decision-maker out of the equation. There’s a lot of emotions in these decisions. Hospitals tend to be very political.

HIStalk Interviews Bill Anderson, CEO, Medhost

Bill Anderson is chairman and CEO of Medhost of Franklin, TN.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I have been associated with Medhost for about seven years. I’m currently the chairman and CEO. Prior to that, I was involved in a number of different businesses. Going back to 1990s, I was an early participant in writing home banking software.

The company is in two businesses. We’re in inpatient healthcare IT and consumer engagement solutions, including the YourCareEverywhere.com website.

You have a fair number of small and rural hospitals as customers. What does their world look like today?

The world is tough in the community hospital market. We divide the hospital world into three buckets. The large tertiary care hospitals that are building communities of care — it’s largely Cerner and Epic territory up there. There are the small standalone facilities that are probably under 50 beds that are CPSI and Athena territory. We compete in the middle market, which is a full-service hospital, but without the complexities of the tertiary care hospital.

They’re not under as much financial stress as the smaller hospitals, although they clearly have more financial stress than the big tertiary care hospitals, which financially are doing much better. Still, there are a number of suburban rural hospitals that are under stress right now with the decline in inpatient volume, the increased fixed costs for regulation, and the insurance risk that they’re having to take on with readmission penalties and things like that.

Does economy of scale favor the huge health systems to the point it will become impossible for small communities to keep their full-service hospitals?

Clearly there are economies of scale. One would like to think that at some point in time, there would be allowances made for that. I’m not sure that’s literally going to happen.

There’s clearly overcapacity in the industry. I think as many as 40 percent of the total hospitals and 30 percent of the beds will probably be taken out of the system ultimately.

When people question that, I go back to the 1980s, when I was in the financial services industry and banking business. There were about 18,000 banks in the United States. Today, there are about 6,000. A lot of the same things were happening. Technology is changing how people use their hospitals, just like they did with banks. I would ask people, "When was the last time you stood in a teller line?" You had increasing regulation, and with the technology, place became less important.

I think there’s going to be a lot of disruption in the hospital market. Still, there are going to have to be geographically convenient locations. In the middle market, there will be winners and losers, but in general, we’ll continue to have a robust community hospital market.

Hospitals provide community pride and large-scale employment to a different degree than banks. Who’s going to figure out the economic answer to having access in communities that can’t support what they already have?

There are two answers to that. There were economic issues and community pride that were involved in the banks that went away also. Economics tend to override those types of things.

One of the reasons we offer our community engagement solution is that hospitals are going to have to build an affinity with consumers outside their normal community. There’s no reason that a hospital can’t build the same type of relationship with a consumer that’s 50 miles away that they did with people in their local town. You just can’t do it by putting billboards up. You have to be able to move into the modern age, do digital marketing, things like that. Not every community is going to have one, but you’re still going to be able to have a sense of community with your community hospital.

Consumers are going to welcome self-service, just like they have in other parts of the economy. For many things where you’ve had to have hands-on visits with a clinician, due to the shortage of clinicians and due to the inconvenience involved, you’re going to see things like telemedicine starting to take a real position in the marketplace. There are going to be alternative delivery channels, not just stand-alone EDs and urgent care centers, but also, the Minute Clinics and those types of things. You’re going to see a diversification of healthcare delivery that’s going to improve the convenience and hopefully the adherence with patients.

One of the things that I thought was interesting recently, because we have a condition management program, is that the federal government has allowed the YMCAs to get reimbursement for things like chronic conditions like diabetes. You can go on the YMCA sites and see that they run diabetes management programs to try to help pre-diabetics. This would probably not have been something that the healthcare delivery system would have been in favor of years ago, but it’s a consumer-friendly type of initiative. Let’s move these types of preventative programs and maybe even some care programs out into other venues so that consumers have better access to them.

The last time we talked, you identified McKesson Paragon and Meditech as your EHR competitors. How has that changed?

If anything, it is firming up. In the large tertiary care hospitals, the battle is probably over. Cerner and Epic largely own that space. It’s based upon the fact that those particular type of big facilities are building communities of care that do complex types of procedures. They offer robust products.

At the smaller end, in particular in the critical access hospitals, they can’t afford a lot. They have to look at total cost of ownership. Somebody could give them a program, but because of the total cost of ownership with training and these types of things, IT requirements, they need a pretty straightforward solution. We’re in between there. We have pretty robust product. We would have what I would call segment-appropriate features and we’re focused on trying to meet the needs of that segment. The battle lines are pretty much in place.

One issue that should be interesting to people in the industry is that we are currently in a lawsuit with Epic. Epic has an interoperability platform called Care Everywhere that is essentially sold with the full suite of Epic products. They’ve got a trademark on it. The trademark, of course, relates to an interoperability product. We have a product called YourCareEverywhere.com, which is an online health and wellness content site, which the Patent and Trademark Office was getting ready to issue a trademark on. Epic is taking us to federal court to block the PTO from issuing that trademark.

In our opinion, the trademark law doesn’t support that. In our investigation of it, we found some other interesting examples. For example, there’s a primary care physician group in Kentucky called Primary Care Everywhere and Epic is also going after them. There’s a company called Access Technology in Texas that has a product called Powering Care Everywhere that does billing for home health that they went after and Access filed for a declaratory judgment in Texas to keep them from doing that.

This is just another example of Epic’s bad behavior of using their market position to bully people around, or at least in my opinion. What they’re trying to do is to broaden their trademark in the courts as opposed to in the PTO, where they wouldn’t be able to do that. Given that your readership is largely people in the industry, they’re probably reasonably interested in Epic’s continuing bad behavior.

What was your reaction when McKesson announced that it was looking for a buyer for its enterprise business that includes Paragon?

I understand why McKesson did that. The RelayHealth business was a terrific business, and I think the deal they’ve done with Change is, for McKesson shareholders — from somebody who’s not an expert but is looking from the outside — a great deal. What they have left, though, is a collection of assets — it’s not really a company — of which Paragon is one. Paragon has about 198 facilities — not that thought about it very much [laughs] –and on the average, they’re smaller than our facilities. In a world where scale is important, that’s a sub-scaled business.

Probably the most interesting thing to happen lately was that Cerner, Meditech, and Medhost all exhibited at the Insight conference. McKesson, for obvious reasons, withdrew their support. The fact that that actually happened is indicative of where the Paragon product is going.

How are modest-sized health systems addressing population health management and consumerism?

We certainly hope they’re addressing consumerism by working with us, with co-branded sites, marketing services, condition management, and things like that. Population health is a term that means what individuals think it means. There are  two aspects of it. One is managing the population. There are hospitals doing that in the analog way out there in our market today. They’re having things like diabetes clinics and clinics to help people with heart disease and COPD. They’re trying to help people and manage the population in the analog world. We’re trying to give them tools to help do that.

The other side of that is, I’m going to take the insurance risk on these. When you hear about population health products from our competitors or other participants in the industry, what they’re really talking about is, how do I analytically manage populations that I have insurance risk on? How can I identify high risk people? How can I reach out to them? How can I see if they make progress?  In the middle market, that’s less of a need today than it may be in the future.

If I’m a big urban hospital, chances are at some point in time, I’m going to be part of an ACO, or because I’m big in things like hip replacements and I’m getting bundled payments, so there will be more need to be able to manage these types of bundled payments and things because they do more sophisticated systems. The needs for population health depends on what kind of facility you are operating.

Everybody agrees that managing a population requires data from outside the four walls, and lack of that data can be interpreted either as a reasonably evolving market state or an indication that someone is intentionally blocking data. Does data blocking exist?

I do in fact believe that there is data blocking. Some of it is not with bad intent. Some of it is a natural result of the tort law system we have in the United States. Nurse notes and physician notes could be pretty sensitive  in the context of potential litigation. People have legitimate reasons for wanting to manage the information flow.

Having said that, ultimately people are going to have to recognize that this is the patient’s data. The patient is going to get care in a number of different venues. It’s probably not going to be a supportable decision to say, I’m going to block the patient’s access to their information in a convenient way that allows them to pick their venue of care. It may take one of these lawsuits that I’m not particularly fond of to establish that that’s a dangerous thing to do.

For instance, if someone comes into an emergency room and there is information available that is being blocked that would affect the care and something happens to that patient, arguably the person who blocked the information contributed to whatever bad happened. The regulations and the laws support the fact that that’s the patient’s information and this whole Balkanization of data is a bad thing. I don’t think it’s actually been driven home to some of the providers that there is exposure in that.

Can the argument be made that interoperability would create the same universally beneficial outcomes in healthcare as it did in banking?

Yes and no. People are sensitive to banking information, too. Interestingly enough, when I was at H&R Block, I had the first credit card that allowed you to download transactions. There were actually two, the Web card and the CompuServe card. In fact, I have a patent on that, which Block never enforced.

At the time we set that up, people said, "I don’t understand why anybody would want to download transactions. Just geeks would want to do that." The reality was that everybody that ordered through a catalog — nobody was ordering online back then — wanted to know when their stuff was shipped, so they watched their credit card bills. There were economic reasons that the average person wanted to be able to see that transaction.

There are going to be reasons that the average person is going to say, "I have to be able to get access to my medical records." The easiest one is, I go to a new primary care physician or I go to an urgent care center and the first thing I have to do is I have to fill out 20 pages of information about my health history. I should be able to have access to my medical records and my health history so that I don’t have to do that, because I will probably as an individual do not such a great job of that.

There are differences in healthcare, but once the consumer gets involved with managing their own care — which is starting to happen in a big way right now — they’re not going to tolerate this Balkanization of data in healthcare any more than they would have tolerated it in other places.

One of the most bizarre things that you see out there is that a patient may be getting care from the same entity in three or four different places. Let’s say I go to an inpatient facility, I go to a specialist, I go to my primary care physician. They may all work for the same company, but I may have three patient portals. Only in healthcare would you ever see something like that.

HIStalk Interviews Robert Lord, CEO, Protenus

Robert Lord is co-founder and CEO of Protenus of Baltimore, MD.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

My co-founder Nick Culberston and I started Protenus when we were both in medical school. We started in response to a big problem that we saw in healthcare, which was that with the rollout of electronic health records, there has not been an effective attendant rollout of privacy and security measures to protect that data, particularly from an insider threat prospective.

Nick and I had backgrounds before healthcare as well. He was a Special Forces operator for the US Army. I was a quant at a hedge fund. We had seen a very different way of tackling the problem of insider threats, protecting VIPs, co-workers, all of those individuals from abuse of their PHI. We built a platform that could shift the paradigm of how we protect patient privacy.

What insider threats are you seeing and how prevalent are those compared to high-profile cyberhacking incidents such as ransomware and phishing?

From our own tracking and independent research, we see that a pretty consistent 40 percent of incidents are linked to the insider threat versus the external hack. While we think that there’s a lot of good work that’s been done on the external side — you see a lot of development in the space — there’s a lot less thoughtful work that’s been done when it comes to insiders, particularly in a healthcare-focused way. That’s been a big challenge.

Healthcare has a huge number of idiosyncrasies and challenges that are unique to the industry. It requires a deep understanding of the workflows and special challenges that the healthcare providers have, like the need for open access to records, the fact that individuals can have irregular workflows and patterns of activity, and the fact that there are huge amounts of data streaming through all of these systems and often in ways that are difficult to understand how they relate. It  takes a different approach, one that can integrate big data techniques and machine learning to get a better handle on this challenge.

Is there a higher likelihood of reputation-damaging behavior from insiders rather than outsiders since the person responsible was given explicit trust as an employee, doctor, or business associate?

Charlie Ornstein of ProPublica did an interesting piece on this. The individual, one-on-one breaches do the most damage because they are more personal, more focused, and more likely to lead to liability and bad blood between the hospital and the affected party.

A big hack from an external actor — whether it’s a foreign government or an individual — or an exposure of a database online can affect a huge number of patients. However, the most acrimonious and reputation-damaging incidents are these insider threats. It’s not just a theoretical exposure, but someone intentionally doing something with patient information, and patients react differently to that. When it’s that close to home, it hurts in a different way.

We know in healthcare that these systems are terrifyingly insecure and vulnerable because of the generally open access architecture, but a lot of patients don’t really appreciate that fact. They’re flabbergasted when they see this type of insider threat from someone in the circle of trust for that hospital.

That’s the big challenge. All of this is a question of trust. If patients start to lose that trust, if we have a crisis of that trust, then what are the implications for the larger system? Hospitals understand that at some level, but we don’t always see the attendant investments and awareness, sometimes at the C-suite level. There’s a lot of reasons for that, but it’s an interesting question that we’re going to have to tackle, both at the individual institution level as well as at the federal government level as they think through mandates of how to improve these systems.

What are some examples of issues your system has detected?

Obviously to protect our clients we can’t go too much into specifics, but the types of things that you see typically in this space include the classic co-worker breach, where individuals look at each other’s records inappropriately. It can be the VIP breach, where you’ve got a big movie star coming into your hospital and suddenly it seems like everyone wants to go check out their face sheet. 

Unfortunately, we’re also seeing the rise of criminal actors and criminal networks acting inside electronic health records, whether that’s directly having someone in there who is stealing records and diverting them to the black market or if it’s bribing individuals to divert those records to the black market. That has happened for as a little as $150 per record.

Obviously these are some pretty scary vulnerabilities. We’re seeing more and more of it. Then there’s the whole question of what happens to the records afterwards. They can be used for a terrifying array of threats, whether that’s identity theft, medication fraud, Medicare and Medicaid fraud, medical blackmail, or traditional identity theft types of operations.

Does every industry have the same insider threat problem or is it caused specifically in healthcare by insufficiently granular access?

Healthcare unfortunately suffers from a bit of a double whammy. On one side, the information within healthcare is some of the most valuable information that you have. I’m a member of the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology and we just released a report on the incredible value of electronic health records on the Dark Web. While there’s a lot of variability, the bottom line is that there are incentives because these are very valuable records.

On the other side, hospitals are pulled in a lot of directions. Those directions don’t necessarily include privacy and security when it comes time to budget. You got so many competing demands for rolling out new electronic health records and associated systems, different informatics  programs, obviously you’ve got the Meaningful Use incentive programs and MACRA. What you’re seeing is hospitals saying, I’ve got to do all of these different things and I’m not really sure where to put privacy and security on the roadmap, But simultaneously, if you don’t put those on the roadmap, in the long run you’re going to degrade the trust that allows those other programs to be successful.

Hospitals are caught in a tough situation right now. Health systems in general are trying to navigate those waters as effectively as they can, but it’s quite difficult. That’s what is leading to these breaches, in addition to those open architectures, the ease at which people can access this data, and the historical lack of technologies in this field to detect and thwart these types of threats.

What kind of normal user behavior does the system learn in being able to identify exceptions?

We take information from the EHR record and from the patient record, then weave it together with access logs, metadata, and a lot of other information that allows us to understand the second-by-second pattern of every single user in the electronic health record. By doing this, we can detect threats that go outside the traditional rule-based paradigms.

It’s never just one thing. It’s usually an entire constellation of things. The types of patients they’re treating, the types of actions they’re taking, the manner in which they’re moving through the medical record, and the amount of time they’re spending in it. Everything from the very simple to the extraordinarily complex.

With a big data platform that uses some of the best in machine learning and artificial intelligence and a lot of the advances that have come out there recently, we’ve built this ensemble anomaly detection system that incorporates a lot of different perspectives. Not just a single type of scenario, but a lot of different ones. We’re able to find everything from the simple types of threats, such as co-workers or family members looking at each other, all the way to extremely complex threats that we wouldn’t really have a name for, but as soon as you see it, you realize this is extraordinarily bad. The type of actor who might during the day have appropriate access to a certain department, but in the evening, on a particular workstation, or when looking up a particular subset of patients, their actions are inappropriate. It’s a subtle difference that won’t be caught by more basic analytics.

What kind of integration is required to put together the package of information that allows you to make that detection?

Our team has a lot of experience in the big data space, data integration, and doing this type of at-scale analysis. We’re investing heavily in our ability to do data integration easily. What we ended up building was a platform that could ingest data from any number of sources and be source agnostic, both in the number of sources as well as type of source. We then can push everything up to a more universal data schema and analyze from that layer. That way we avoid a lot of the laborious integration that often happens with other systems. There have been a lot of advances in technology that have allowed us to look at the data more from a first principle standpoint and then figure out exactly the elements that we need on a dynamic basis, instead of a highly manual and specified basis.

Do you have any final thoughts?

Healthcare is fundamentally facing a crisis in trust in our systems. We’re increasing the amount of data we collect. We’re increasing the analytics that we’re performing. We’re increasing interoperability. We need all these things to deliver the promise of better care, better patient satisfaction, and decreased cost. In no way do we want to stand in the way of all of this great data-sharing.

Simultaneously, if we can’t build that trust in the system, if we can’t establish a new paradigm for how we’re going to protect all this data and make sure people are accessing data appropriately, then we’re going to lose all of these benefits in the long run. 

As both privacy and security wonks as well as data scientists, we’re really excited here at Protenus about being able to push forward those advances in data science when it comes to privacy and security, just as they’re being pushed forward in improving patient care. I think that’s a big trend that we’re seeing and something we’re very hopeful about. 

While we think that in the immediate future things are probably going to get a little bit worse, in the long run, we’re going to have a much better system. Maybe even better than those in other industries, because healthcare is going to be tackling the hard problems first.

HIStalk Interviews Bill Corsten, President, Agfa HealthCare

Bill Corsten is president, North America of Agfa HealthCare.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I’ve been at Agfa HealthCare since September of 2014, but I’ve been in healthcare IT for just over 20 years, about half of that at McKesson Corporation. I grew up in sales and sales leadership and I still love it, quite honestly, but right now I find myself more motivated by the operational and cultural challenges of running a business like Agfa HealthCare.

This is an old company. We’ve been in business for 150 years and in healthcare since the 1940s. That’s a long and meaningful history because of a commitment to innovation. If you look at the evolution of the company, we’ve been able to maintain a market-leading position in our two primary businesses of medical imaging IT and x-ray technologies.

How is imaging changing with the push for value-based care and care coordination?

When people think imaging, I suppose they think traditional radiology and cardiology, the birthplace of medical imaging. Our more successful customers are taking advantage of the power of medical imaging throughout the hospital and beyond the four walls of that hospital. We’ve got customers who are using it, distributing it, or viewing in upwards of 35 and 40 different departments, so it has gone beyond radiology and cardiology.

Medical imaging in that expanded use can have a tremendous impact on patient care. No medical record is complete without clinical data, medical imaging data, and of course content document management data. There’s still a lot of paper in hospitals these days. We believe we’re completing the medical record and making it better for patients who are our ultimate customers or consumers of healthcare, making it easier for our hospital customers to deliver care more efficiently and effectively for our consumers.

Imaging contains the image itself as well as any clinical commentary or analysis that has been added. What’s the best value case for each of those?

It’s evolving. It’s getting there, but we’ve still got a way to go. If you look over the last decade at the importance of the electronic medical record and the Affordable Care Act’s impact on adoption, it did leave a gap in completing that story. It is really over the last couple of years that we’re seeing the adoption of enterprise imaging and the expansion and the use of that.

If you’re a patient, if you’re a care provider, if you’re a referring physician, to have that picture go along with the words is really completing the story of the patient. It’s not until you have that full story we believe can you make a comprehensive diagnosis and care plan for that patient.

Does imaging have a population health or research component?

Absolutely. Is Agfa HealthCare a population health management primary company? No. Do we participate in that space and are we going to be a key component to an overall solution? Absolutely.

With respect to medical images themselves and the use or data mining of those images, there are use cases where we can look at historic studies. For example, lung nodules, if we’ve got a patient that presents with a lung nodule, a physician may look at that and make a determination — based on the size, based on how long that nodule’s been present — to either act or not to act. To incur that expense and that patient experience or not.

If we can roll forward and have that volume of data or those studies and put together trends, we could use this predictively to make sure we’re making proactive recommendations or not based on like studies that have been stored over time at a particular institution or across the industry itself.

Patients still complain that new providers don’t have access to their previously taken images. Are we making progress on sharing them?

That is the power of our platform. On a single platform, it’s consolidating all of the image data from multiple service lines. It could be from multiple PACS, multiple departments inside the hospital, and outside in a secure manner, which gives access to patients. Lets them see their medical images. It could be providers who are giving the care and it could be the referring physician. Anytime, anywhere. It is absolutely enabling and perpetuating that medical image regardless of proprietary specifics.

How would I as an office-based physician best gain access to a health system’s images of my patient?

Historically you would have CDs. A patient would leave a hospital with a CD, or going way back to the film days, a big manila envelope. What happens to those CDs? They get misplaced or a patient forgets to bring the CD to the referring physician’s office. Then you either lose the time with that physician or that patient doesn’t get the care that they need at the time, it could result in reprinting or populating of that CD.

With the technology that Agfa brings, there is exchange and distribution of that image from the single platform where it was captured. Then there’s viewing capabilities by anybody who participates in that image chain or in that image experience. If I’m a patient or if I’m a referring physician, through the technologies — over and above the original capture of that image — they’re able to distribute and or view that image, taking advantage of eliminating the need for film or CDs.

What is the state and the future state of integrating images with EHRs?

There’s a reason that the big EHR vendors don’t necessarily label themselves as experts in medical imaging. It’s difficult, it’s complex, it’s vast, and it’s a critical component of the legal medical record.

To put our industry in a position where we can take advantage of a single EHR integration across departments, regardless of where they exist, and to connect that to the patient’s medical records so as to bring it all together, it’s only going to make it a better experience, more efficient, more economical. There’s going to be lower total cost of ownership with respect to the number of disparate systems that you’re having to maintain. It will facilitate the flow in the way the physician wants to experience it or the way the patient wants to experience it. That is what is driving our development efforts and our integration efforts when it comes to playing with some of the larger EHR vendors in North America.

What are people doing with VNAs beyond just storing DICOM images?

I come from the EMR industry with 10 years at McKesson. The parallel between then, the clinical data repository and the Web portal or physician portal viewer, and today’s VNA and the viewer … much of our competition had gotten a head start on that and we let them run. We gave them that head start because we took a more holistic approach to this. We wanted to deliver a full solution that was not simply about a repository and a viewer, but it was about the capture and the distribution of those DICOM images to all caregivers, patients, and referring physicians across all settings of care. We took a little different approach to it.

There is non-DICOM imaging. It is a major component. Agfa Healthcare has a very successfully deployed an enterprise content management system in our European customer base that we are now considering bringing to North America. Not for the benefit of competing nose-to-nose with those existing vendors in that space, but actually taking the enterprise imaging and document management and bringing them together so that one and one becomes three for our customers. We’re able to bring that workflow. We’re able to bring the advantages of having non-DICOM and DICOM images managed by the same vendor and distributed into the workflow of our care providers and other caregivers in a seamless and efficient way. That is something that we’re investigating quite seriously.

It’s been said that no doctor wants a physician portal. Is it a challenge to go beyond pull-type systems to pushing the new information automatically to the systems in which the provider works all day?

It can be. You’re right — patient and physician portals have been in the industry for 15 to 20 years. Agfa’s approach to this functionality is different, where we are utilizing it in a use case scenario or problem-solving opportunities as it relates to our enterprise imaging application. We’ve got a portal solution that we are marketing to make it easier for our patients to experience the care provided by their community hospital or their integrated delivery network. We are doing it on a problem-solving approach.

Rather than say we’ve got a physician portal or a patient portal that is to replace the legacy systems that are out there, we are integrating it deeply into our solution so it becomes a seamless component to that experience, whether you’re a care provider or a patient. You’re right — pushing that information is more important than pulling that information. We’re making sure that, much like we have in the development of our core solutions, the information is where they need it and it’s in the hands of the right person on that image chain at the right time.

Where do you see the future of imaging as it relates to medical informatics?

The opportunity is only going to get bigger. The opportunity is for those vendors who are in this for the right reasons, with the right vision, and not trying to isolate themselves but rather to avail themselves to the greater good, which our ultimate patient, the ultimate consumer. Those that recognize interoperability is a must and that we are not going to be all things for all people.

But I absolutely firmly believe that medical imaging, enterprise imaging in the manner that we’re espousing, is going to be a critical component in our delivery of healthcare, whether you look at the development of population health solutions and the participation in HIEs or if you look at a small community hospital. They are the HIE, if you think about it. In their community, they’re everything to their patients.

It’s how we choose to work with our customers to align to their outcomes. That’s going to make the difference and those are the vendors that are going to survive, those vendors that are driving the patient outcomes, driving our customers’ outcomes, and letting those outcomes drive our R&D. That will drive our direction as we look to develop our place in the marketplace.

HIStalk Interviews Stu Randle, CEO, Ivenix

Stuart A. “Stu” Randle is president and CEO of Ivenix of Amesbury, MA.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I’ve been in the med tech business for 25-ish years, a lot of that with Baxter in the early years. I’ve done three small companies, this being the third one. Ivenix is focused on transforming IV infusion therapy with a fundamentally different pumping technology, IT architecture, and interoperability that we think is unmatched in the marketplace.

One of the challenges in the marketplace today is that most of the pumps that are out there have a fundamental operating platform that’s 10-plus years old. We started with a blank sheet of paper to try to move us into the iPhone era. As an example, we provide infusion information on mobile devices and desktops so the nurses have the ability to understand what’s going on with the infusion when they’re not at the bedside. That obviously helps from a nurse workflow standpoint and also significantly helps for the patient because the nurses don’t need to be there for them to know what’s happening with that infusion.

The early generation smart pumps had a lot of programming capability, but always seemed to struggle with network connectivity and library updates. How hard is it to turn that 10-year-old technology into a true connected IT device?

Really hard. Think about the pumps in the marketplace today as your desktop computer from 10 years ago. If you want that desktop computer from 10 years ago to work like an iPhone does today with apps, mobile, cybersecurity, and everything else, that’s hard to do.

Where we think we are very different is that we started with a clean sheet of paper, understanding all the issues and developing a different pumping technology, but much more so a fundamentally different IT architecture that is relevant today and not a decade old.

What are the challenges in creating a user interface that works for nurses and that FDA will approve?

The FDA has pretty specific guidelines and requirements. You have to do testing. We’ve had nurses in every couple of months for a few years now to work on the user interface.

Again, the fundamental difference with our user interface is that it’s much more like an iPhone. It’s menu driven. It’s touchscreen, as opposed to the products out there today that are mostly buttons and knobs. We have a pretty big screen so the nurse can see the infusion information standing at the door to the hospital room as opposed to standing right next to the device.

What safeguards exist to help prevent nurse programming mistakes?

The more you can program in to alleviate those and make it very difficult for the nurse to make an error, the better you’re doing. We have a number of things that help in that regard. For all the drugs, there are guidelines that can be set up by the hospital. What’s the recommended range? We notify the nurse if the programming is outside the range but still acceptable. Then there are limits beyond that where the pharmacists have said, "Don’t do that." That’s one area where we put those guidelines in place.

Our pumps also know if there are other pumps connected to that same patient. You can’t give the same patient the same drug from two different pumps. We know that what’s going on with that patient from all of the pumps connected to them. We eliminate that. We know if on one of our pumps you can deliver through two inlets, if you’re going to deliver two drugs that are incompatible with each other, we’ll notify you of that when you try to program it and say, "These drugs are incompatible. You can’t do it."

We’ve built in a number of things, partially with the work of the hospital pharmacists and their drug library, as well as the guidelines and architecture so that you can’t do things that we know are going to be harmful to the patient.

What’s the ideal state of having a smart infusion device talking to an EHR system?

We worked at HIMSS last year with one of the vendors on doing that. The more information you can deliver directly from the infusion into the EMR without any integration engine in between, the better. We are working with those guys. We can provide all that information and data and make it smooth and seamless.

Likewise, we can download orders from the hospital pharmacy directly to the pump itself. The nurse is there to verify that, yes, this is the order that we have for this patient. This is the right dosage. Pretty much hit “start” and we can go. We try to make it as seamless as possible and integrate into the entire EMR.

We’ve heard from a number of the EMR vendors as well as hospital executives that one of their primary product areas with the greatest frustration and the lack of interoperability today is infusion pumps. We think with the architecture we’ve put in place that we’re going to solve that issue.

What improvements have been made in pump alarms that just make noise until someone shuts them off?

We’ve done a couple of things to reduce them as well as to eliminate the aggravation. One of the biggest areas of alarms is air in line. We have an air eliminating filter, so we can eliminate the need for that alarm to even go off because we eliminate the problem. If the patient bends their arm and kinks it, it will give an occlusion alarm, but if the patient moves that arm again, that alarm will stop and the infusion will continue.

What quality improvement opportunities do hospitals have in using the information the system generates?

They can look at reduction in medication errors. They can look at nurse efficiency and workflow efficiency. All of our pump data is available to the biomed department or the engineering department, so the pumps know when they need to be maintained as opposed to a regularly scheduled out-of-service process. The infusion data can increase charge capture.

We are working with the hospitals to say, we have this wealth of data. How would you like to receive that? How would you like to utilize it?

What are the IT implications of implementing your system?

We work with the pharmacy on uploading the drug library, which we will do as part of the service of the installation. We’re very different from the other guys in that we do everything wirelessly. If there are cybersecurity patches, if there are software upgrades, if there are other items like that, we can do that wirelessly.

At HIMSS, I spoke to someone who was responsible at his institution for a fleet of 18,000 pumps. They had a software upgrade. For them to implement that software upgrade, they had to take each of these 18,000 pumps out of service. We do it all wirelessly, just like when you get a new app on your iPhone. Things like that are huge improvements in productivity and also certainly help on the IT side.

How to you address theoretical security risks?

We started with this clean sheet of paper. Our software guys came from other companies where they were on the receiving end of this information and know the architecture. We architected it with encryption and security similar to the banking system. We always envisioned that we would be going to the home and other areas of care. Cybersecurity was always at the forefront of our thinking in terms of safety because we want to go well beyond the hospital to the entirety of the hospital enterprise or system enterprise. We built it in on early on. We feel quite confident of our security today.

Your competitors are mostly big companies that earn exclusive contracts to provide all the infusion technology for a given health system. How do you see the company changing in the next several years?

As you noted, it’s pretty much an oligopoly today in the US, but everyone’s using technology that is analogous to a 10-year-old desktop. We’re bringing something entirely new to the market. We think that disruption and the opportunity to better integrate with the IT systems within the hospital and across the integrated delivery network or whatever their system is provides us a distinct advantage. We think it is something entirely new and different. We’re pretty optimistic about the reception we’ll receive from the US hospital market.

HIStalk Interviews Michael Poling, SVP/GM, Infor Healthcare

Mike Poling is SVP/GM of healthcare for Infor of New York, NY.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I’m general manager of healthcare at Infor. We’re a $3 billion software company. Healthcare is about $500 million of that. I came from Lawson Software and was previously at Siemens. My entire career has been in the healthcare IT industry.

As a vendor of an integration solution, what are the opportunities and challenges in an era where everybody wants interoperability?

In the world of acute care consolidation as well as extending care outside the walls of a hospital, data itself and the integration of data becomes mission critical in terms of analyzing patient outcomes married to cost. Everybody wants to understand what their cost is relative to delivering care as well as the satisfaction ratings that are wrapped around it. Data becomes the center of importance.

Does a new level of sophistication exist where health systems are aware of the incremental cost involved with delivering a particular service or a product?

Yes. There’s a need for healthcare to report on lines of business — both in terms of profitability, revenue as well as cost — because of where the industry is in terms of the switch from fee-for-service to more of a bundled fee for delivering care. It’s mission critical for my customers to understand where they’re making money and where they’re not. Line-of-business reporting has become mission critical for them.

What are the staffing, recruiting, and productivity challenges that health systems are dealing with given that a high percentage of their cost involves labor?

Going back to what I said before around the lines of business, you want to make sure that you’re focusing the right talent and the right job to perform the right service. That, married along with where a hospital can continue to remain profitable, is very important. It takes certain skills. If you take it to a specialty hospital, like a children’s hospital as an example, nurses and doctors who deal with children have a certain skill set, a certain mental approach, and a certain soft skill. That goes across the board, depending on what type of care that you’re delivering.

Specializing and understanding what certain behaviors are relative to delivering care and making sure that since 60 to 70 percent of the hospital’s expenses are related to labor, you want to make sure that you’re hiring the right people, that you’re onboarding them, that you’re keeping them for a long period of time to reduce those expenses.

Is the idea of clinical staffing based on patient acuity still controversial?

The industry is still hanging on to the idea. I would say that nobody’s mastered that. Having the right person at the right bedside with the right supplies and with the right skill, but also then maximizing your workforce productivity — that’s still nirvana or utopia.

There are products in the market that help with that, but getting to the point where you enter things in like seasonality as well as population health and population management to predict hospital inpatient stays as well as outpatient care delivery needs — that’s where we still need some assistance in the healthcare industry.

Floating nurses to cover other areas based on workload needs appeared to worsen patient outcomes because they weren’t as familiar with the workflows and relationships in those areas. Have hospitals improved that situation to give them more workforce flexibility?

It’s the reason that you’re seeing the world of the minute clinics and delivering care in mall settings as well as in the retail space. There’s a need to push those types of resources out to the population. That trend is going to continue, where you have more skilled labor outside of the acute care setting and putting them in those remote settings.

There’s a balance to that as well. You need to have people that continue to deliver family practice medicine, but specialize in some of the things that you’re talking about. The US is going to continue to have the need to push services out into the population. Balancing that with the costs that we’ve been talking about is the real challenge.

Do hospitals have the necessary expertise to run freestanding EDs, urgent care clinics, and population health management programs?

That’s a very good question. What I see is that there are more executives who are coming outside of healthcare into the healthcare world, as well as more physicians who are getting into IT-related services. The reason for that is that if you come from a manufacturing or retail world and understand things like distribution, workforce management, and the distribution channel, that’s different from somebody who has been in healthcare their entire career.

If you layer on top of that the care delivery path aspects that a doctor or nurse understands, that adds that layer of knowledge as well as flow to what needs to be delivered to remote locations that are delivering care.

How do hospitals use technology to help them continue to offer money-losing services by funding them from profitable lines of business?

There’s certainly a technology aspect to what you’re talking about. What I see is that there are more referral networks that are being built through affiliations, through relationships, through of course ownership and consolidation. You make decisions as a hospital what you can and you can’t do. Then you build affiliations around things that you need to deliver.

Labor and delivery is a good example of that. Heart would be another good example of that. If you have somebody who needs critical care related to a heart condition, you want to have an affiliation, a brother or sister hospital that you can send that person to given the time available to do that. I see that as driving the need for technology.

Building the referral network drives the need to then share information between those facilities to get integration. Certainly resource sharing as well as supply sharing. Twenty or 25 percent of a hospital’s expenses are supply related, so you have to make sure you’re maximizing those as well. The technology is needed to accomplish the things I talked about.

Some hospitals choked in the late 1990s and early 2000s  by trying to implement SAP, which was then mostly known as an enterprise resource planning system for manufacturing. What’s the status of ERP in healthcare and how has that evolved from yesterday’s materials management systems?

I laughed when you said SAP. I had a couple of personal friends who left Lawson when I was there to go run the SAP healthcare practice. I know exactly what those challenges were.

What ERP is turning into for healthcare specifically is sitting adjacent to the electronic health record and enabling a healthcare institution to be able to capture the cost components that we’ve been talking about. Analyzing that and looking at lines of business reporting.

ERP has become the need to start to drive the analytic, which we believe starts right with setting up the general ledger and setting up how you’re going to look at the lines of business and then reporting from those. Controlling labor, controlling cost, as well as measuring the cost. ERP in healthcare has become a central strategy to being able to do those things.

The pendulum swung hard to the left to implement EHR systems in the past. It’s now swinging back to the right. Once those EHR systems are implemented, now you need to implement and maximize the other side, which is where an ERP system comes into play.

Do hospitals expect their EHR and ERP vendors to share information bi-directionally?

Absolutely. They’re looking for plug-in integration points. From my side, they want my system to immediately talk to Cerner, Epic, or Allscripts. Give me something that’s going to plug right in where I don’t have to build point-to-point integrations, because we know what integrations need to happen. We know where the data needs to reside and where it needs to get to. That’s what we’re being asked to do and what we’re delivering.

There’s a push for hospitals to implement customer relationship management systems for both business and population health management purposes. How are hospitals addressing that need?

Most of the time when we get into that conversation with a customer, we drop the “C” part of CRM and talk about relationship management, which seems to resonate. Their relationships with their patients …you immediately go there with population management, measuring customer satisfaction or patient satisfaction, making sure that you’re engaging the patient on an ongoing basis. Once they’re discharged, make sure that they’re following their instructions for their medications, those types of things. That relationship that you have with the patient certainly is important.

The other relationships that are important … I talked before about the referral network. The physician referral process and physician referral relationship is extremely important. One physician referring to another physician that’s in the network of the hospital that has built, either through acquisition or through affiliation, this network that they want to continue to feed. The relationships between the physicians become strategic and important as well to making sure that you’re keeping the patients inside of your health network.

We see those two huge needs as relationship management going forward. Of course then you can take the relationship management to the population health to that next step, being able to look at recurring patterns in your population for certain patients and patient outcomes via that relationship management.

HIStalk Interviews Eric Widen, CEO, HBI Solutions

Eric Widen is co-founder and CEO of HBI Solutions of Palo Alto, CA.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I’ve worked in healthcare my entire career. I’ve had an eclectic mix of experience working for consultancies, electronic health record vendors, for myself for a period of time, and for providers. All with a focus on implementing technology to drive improvement, from a health system standpoint and now more so from a population standpoint.

The theme has always been around using data that’s inherent in these systems to help drive performance improvement. We founded the company on that concept of helping health systems and organizations take advantage of data to improve their performance, Specifically to improve population health approaches by leveraging data that’s mostly residing in electronic health records, which have become more ubiquitous over the last 10 or 15 years.

How do you position the company among the many that offer analytics and population health management technology?

Population health, analytics, and even predictive modeling are broad-based terms and topics. Many vendors are saying similar things.

Where we differentiate is that we’re not a platform company. We’re very much a focused solution that we term a precision health solution or precision medicine solution that’s leveraging real-time predictive models that are proprietary intellectual property that we’ve developed. These are our own real-time predictive models that we provide that drive our precision health solution. That’s a niche focus.

We’re technology platform agnostic. We see this as an important piece to identify people at risk for untoward events before those events happen. In real time, meaning leveraging electronic health record data to do that in order to keep people healthy and from creeping up the disease and cost curve over time. That engine that we built can be installed in many different types of platforms. We think it’s an important piece of the puzzle.

Population health includes analytics, care management to take care of the patients, and the interventions that are going to be applied to patients. Our focus is in real time identifying people at risk for poor outcomes before they happen and then identifying the interventions to apply to those patients in order to mitigate the risk from ever happening.

That engine is what we provide. It can be deployed on many different types of platforms, including interoperability system platforms or EMR platforms. Those two examples of interoperability solution vendors and electronic health record vendors also pitch that they do population health. They provide the platform to do that. Very few organizations are providing the specific engine that we provide.

Are providers becoming willing and able to intervene when their patients are flagged as high risk?

What happens on the provider side today is that they’re balancing multiple incentive structures. They’ve dipped their toe in the water. What we’re seeing is 10, maybe 20 percent of the health system’s population is under a new payment mechanism, meaning at risk and/or upside gain for populations. But they’re still balancing the fee-for-service methodology at the same time. These are schizophrenic conversations. Everyone agrees that future is coming and that taking care of patients and keeping them healthy is going to be the new care model going forward, but they’re not there yet.

Organizations are confused about the speed of when that’s going to happen and it freezes decision making a little bit. Organizations are being successful with the experiments in taking care of patients proactively to keep them healthy in order to make financial gain under these new payment mechanisms. Where they can carve out those patient populations and apply these methods, they’ll restructure their care management processes to do that.

They’re really struggling with that decision when and how to do that. We see them doing it well where the incentives are aligned and there is a service component to that to help them rewire their care management processes to think differently about taking care of patients pre-disease or taking them from an at-risk standpoint as opposed to post-disease, which has been the old care model.

Is it an ethical struggle for providers who are beginning to see the value of providing population health management but realize that it could cannibalize their incomes if they do it or everyone, including those for whom they’re being paid fee-for-service?

I don’t think it’s an ethical struggle. It’s a clear problem to solve. It gets back to the acceleration of when are these going to come in full force.

We have clients that have done exactly that. They’ve done such a good job at using our solution to target patients at risk, keep them out of the emergency room, keep them out of the inpatient setting, keep them on the right care programs to mitigate disease progression, whereby they have reduced admissions and volume to their hospital. They’ve had a struggle with that.

What they’ve said is that this is the right thing to do for the patients at the end of the day, to keep them healthy and out of the acute care settings. What they’re looking to do is figure out how to accelerate taking on more incentive-based contracts and risk-based contracts in order to keep this going.

I don’t think it’s unethical. They had upfront conversations about it and they’re trying to figure out strategically how to continue to navigate this process. All of the organizations we’ve talked realize it’s coming and they’re willing to prepare for it. It’s just a matter of speed.

Providers can’t just unilaterally reach out to a high-risk patient and tell them what to do. Is it a marketing challenge as well as a clinical challenge to get patients engaged in this process that’s new to them?

Disengagement from a patient standpoint is a continuous problem for care managers. The ability to engage the non-engageable is a never-ending problem for the care management folks.

What we’re seeing and what we think is important is that the applying the same interventions to the whole population is inefficient. Applying risk stratification information to your patient population allows you to target both resources and the right interventions to the right patients in order to focus. It’s a much more efficient deployment of resources in order to be successful in this game so you’re not wasting time on patients who are otherwise low risk.

The non-engaged patient population, there’s always a sub-cohort of those patients that are always there. It just requires different skills to engage them from a care management standpoint. It’s very much an approach and a methodology that these organizations need to think about to solve that problem.

We will probably look back years from now and see the readmission focus as tactical, with an uncertain impact on outcomes and maybe even on overall cost. Will this push to identify high-risk patients extend further than just keeping them out of the ED and inpatient beds?

I think that’s right. CMS has been thoughtful about their approach for aligning incentives. They’ve gotten better over time for doing this. You see the commercial insurers following CMS’s lead.

The one metric of focusing on readmissions post-discharge, you do have to apply advanced proactive and thoughtful discharge planning to mitigate a patient from coming back, which includes understanding the local and outpatient ambulatory resources that are available in order to mitigate the acute readmission from happening. Even though it was focused on an inpatient metric, the ability to affect that measure required them to think pretty broadly about systems that are potentially external to their four walls to put these programs into place.

I thought it was a good exercise to being able to mitigate that measure or outcome on patient population against a broader portfolio of measures that they’re going to put into place, which is going to inevitably head to capitation 2.0, payment to keep patients otherwise healthy and not using unnecessary resources to stay healthy.

Couldn’t hospitals dig through their EHR data themselves without additional technology? Also, is it enough to use that inpatient data snapshot alone vs. what might have happened to that patient in the 30-day readmission window?

The philosophy is to use any and all available data on the patient in order to understand what’s going to happen in the future. EHR has provided a great, rich resource for that data set. They are real time and they’re clinically based. But you can augment that with claims data, billing data, and things like natural language processing, which is extracting information from the notes and also connecting that to publicly available data from things like the CDC or census information to understand average income levels or average education levels per ZIP code. All the information that is becoming more and more available on patients is very helpful in predicting the future that’s going to happen.

You want as much information as you can possibly get on a patient to predict the future. That includes not just the inpatient data, but the full gamut of inpatient, outpatient. You’ve got public HIEs, which can provide a rich resource if they’re structured correctly in capturing data centrally to have a longitudinal health record across the geographic area. But what you’re seeing health systems do more and more now is deploying more private HIE infrastructure to tap into that ambulatory information that’s extending beyond their four walls and at least setting up agreements with ambulatory providers to capture as much information to provide a comprehensive view on the patient.

Where solutions like what we provide come into play is allowing the machine to do as much as work as possible to help augment clinical cognitive thinking on the patient population. Computers and computer machine learning and so forth can automate a lot of information that a physician and or care manager wouldn’t otherwise be able to do. It can help them augment their clinical education and background in order to take care of patients by providing more information that they otherwise wouldn’t have.

Another component is the ability to integrate into the workflow. Risk information is helpful in providing the content to understand which interventions to apply to mitigate the risk. Automating that into the clinical workflow so that it becomes part and parcel of what a clinician and or care manager is doing on a day-to-day basis is a necessary component in order to not have bifurcated systems and make the workflow as efficient as possible.

What this gets down to is identifying proactively patients at risk with the interventions that apply to that and automating suggested care plans and orders on the patient that a physician or care manager can quickly think through in order to provide the right intervention to the patient.

Where do you see the concept of predictively identifying patients at risk playing out over the next five years?

When we first started this, there weren’t too many players in the game. What we saw mostly in the market were legacy, claims-based risk vendors who were focused on the insurance market or health plan market. What we’re seeing now are more companies like us using clinical information to provide real-time risk stratification information.

Over time, these will become more of a commodity and part and parcel of doing work because it’s necessary for organizations to think this way proactively about their patients and patient population and keep them healthy at home. All the right incentives are aligning to make this a necessary core component of taking care of patients while they’re healthy, while they’re in a pre-disease state, forever escalating up the risk curve.

HIStalk Interviews Travis Bond, CEO, CareSync

Travis Bond is founder and CEO of CareSync of Tampa, FL.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

I’m the founder and CEO of CareSync, which is my ninth company. My last company was Bond Technologies, which created one of the very first browser-based EMRs in the world. We had the opportunity to exit to the Eclipsys Corporation back in 2008, I believe.

I put the band back together in 2011 to create CareSync, which is a patient-centered electronic medical record that has a service on the side that basically acts as a record aggregator service. Carbon-based interfaces go out and get records and put them in a usable format that can be later searched, shared, and collaborated on. That all gave way to a business opportunity that CMS created in 2015 for chronic care management. That’s where we are today as one of the industry’s largest providers of chronic care management services under the new code.

Which is the chicken and which is the egg in offering a product that both consumers and their providers use?

It was probably providential in some ways that we cut our teeth on a consumer product. We weren’t bound by Washington, DC regulatory requirements for a product roadmap. What’s really useful for people when they become a clinical patient is they need information and they need resources that help them to shorten the gap between what providers are saying and doing on their behalf and how they can then respond. That product, started in 2013 and known as CareSync Plus, had about a 3 percent conversion rate when we went out and advertised it to people.

It is the CMS product that now gives us the business-to-business product. We act as the vendor on behalf of the provider to offer essentially the same service. The difference — and why we still have a chicken and an egg — is that about 5,000 members a month come onto the CareSync platform as family members. Some of those family members want the same services that CCM provides under CMS for themselves. We really couldn’t sunset a legacy product when there were still people who wanted to be more of an active caregiver or wanted to be more engaged patient.

What is the scope of the CCM business?

CMS has released information only about twice on how many people and how many claims they’ve produced. At last count several months ago, about 300,000-plus have been enrolled in CCM programs since their inception in 2015. From our point of view,  the geography of that number of claims is all 50 states. We have users in 30 states alone. It’s not really because we had any grand master plan, it’s that there is an alignment with many practices that want to try to care for people where they live, work, and play, not just at points or nodes of care.

I think CMS was disappointed that it did not ramp up as quickly because CMS had identified that they were going to pay $10+ billion every year for this program. Theoretically, it created a much bigger total adjustable market per year, $16 billion in 2015 and 2016. That number actually increases to a possible addressable market to $20+ billion because now they’ve given three new codes out to incentivize the market. One is an enrollment code and the other two are to address complex chronic care.

It’s not going away. It was a slow-starting process, but it’s being addressed from many different areas. The inevitability of chronic care management programs throughout healthcare has pretty much been set in stone and will just continue to grow as other new things have been introduced in healthcare over the last several decades, like HMOs and PCMHs and others. This is just another one in the fold that will continue to mature.

If I’m a physician and I think you’re a candidate to participate in CCM, what is your obligation as a patient?

It’s really quite simple. There is the consent process, which CMS wanted to know that there was written confirmation that a patient was elected to participate in something that they were eligible for. In this case, two or more chronic conditions. The chronic conditions, though, were very liberally interpreted by CMS, meaning that they were not going to actually put edits on what a provider thought was a chronically ill condition for the patient. If you look at ICD-9 alone, there are over 4,500 conditions which are marked or flagged chronic in nature.

From a patient’s perspective, it really is how you design the program. Patients need to have access to information, electronically or written, and have access to those that can access that information and are clinically trained or licensed 24/7. It’s more of an access from the vendor or the provider’s perspective. The patient, outside of them consenting to the program, just needs to make themselves available. The program  is designed to give back more time and resources to where patients need it and that’s in the consumption of the treatment plans that various providers are administering to them, a reconciliation of that.

We’ve found that variability of patient engagement is as wide as any that you could imagine. Some just like to be called once a month and talked to. Others will have inbound calls and want to talk extensively about their progress. We have patients that will be a few minutes a month or it could literally be in the several hundred minutes per month. Patient requirements are still low, other than their co-insurance or co-pay responsibilities.

Otherwise, it’s intended to be a service that is aggregating information, creating a comprehensive care plan that the patient can then consume and can be collaborated and administered, and then lastly, creating a health summary that can be provided back to the patient or anyone who is seeing the patient. Overall, patient requirements are still low, but it’s incumbent on the provider to maximize the value to the patient of the program as prescribed under CMS.

How does Medicare verify or monitor that services were provided and not just billed?

In the CMS program, you bill Medicare and they pay based upon whatever edits they can run through a computer system. They don’t verify until they actually audit.

This code is really no different. They’ve said at least initially in the first couple of years that they weren’t going to put edits on their claims, meaning that they weren’t going to necessarily determine whether a chronic condition had met some criteria that Medicare would feel is not chronic enough or chronic in the right way. They’ve left that up to the physicians’ discretion.

What we’ve found is we have hundreds of chronic diseases that are on our lists for the patients who we serve. As you know, there are even several thousand rare diseases that meet the chronic definition. As it stands right now, we’ve not seen any claims denied as it relates to the diagnosis that has been tied to the CPT code 99490.

How did CareSync’s recent $20 million in new funding come about and how has it changed what you do?

We were very fortunate to have a lot of venture capitalists and strategics already having conversations with as it related back to our legacy product, CareSync Plus. Many people felt that there needed to be a connective tissue, if you will, for patients where they’re in the space that we call the dark space, which is where you are when you’re not at an appointment or a hospital setting. This dark space is like trying to navigate between airports without a radar system or air traffic control. The thesis was that surely some entity or some party would benefit if patients were better monitored and/or had the opportunities to help themselves adhere to what was prescribed.

When the code came out, it was the match that lit the fire. We were setting ourselves up with people who thought that there were problems in healthcare that could be solved with a combination of nurses and technology. Having those things in place when the code came about allowed us to execute on closing financing rounds from those players. They have since then recommitted to continuing to fund CaresSync.

We feel that the chronic care management market will continue to grow significantly, especially under the new codes in MACRA. We have 18 months of solid data that shows that providers are getting paid. We’re seeing real tangible benefits for clinical outcomes as well. Nine percent of our patients that come into the system have a severe drug-to-drug interaction that no one knew about. That’s nearly one in 10, which is pretty significant because it’s the severe drug-to-drug interactions that potentially are lethal. Sixty-four percent of our patients avoided a duplicate test because they had the results with them. A provider avoided re-prescribing another test because they felt that they had the results that they needed at the time of care.

There are many things that illustrate the advantages of the program. Those things obviously matriculate back to value when you look at an investment community. The key thing in pairing up investments from the investment community and being an entity in this space is the ability to execute at scale. We have found that it is much easier to have a chronic care management program at 30 nurses than it is 300. There are natural elements of growing and scaling that process and learning a lot of things along the way.

I think that what you’ll see overall in the market is that there will be a continued interest from the investment community in supporting this dark space and the vendors that emerge from this innovation opportunity.

Are you seeing any improvement in the ability and willingness of hospitals to provide patients with their electronic records in whatever form they request?

They’re getting a little bit better, but we’re getting a lot smarter. It’s the combination of the two that has created the net result that we are getting better, faster results from the data.

There has been an implementation of these HIT systems lag, in terms of those professionals who are running these systems even knowing that there are features to share the information. There’s still the HIPAA cloud of death and despair that hangs over all of these institutions. They feel that they need to protect this data, even from those who originated it, like the patient. That becomes primarily an education step. There’s still also a lot of medical-legal sensitivity. Why does a person want their data? Do they think we did something wrong?

That’s still a case-by-case process that we have to go through at CareSync. It’s still far easier for a provider to request information than it is a vendor. A vendor is always suspect. It is slowly changing. I wouldn’t say that we have a marked increase in the amount of freedom of information posture of these institutions that hold large amounts of it, but at least we’re seeing some incremental changes in a direction for the positive.

You were selling EHRs in the heady days. Are you glad you aren’t still in the EHR business?

Yes. [laughs] I am glad that I’m not there. In retrospect, the advent of EMRs bogged down the efficiency of a visit.

Having some medical training acted as the foundation for creating our EMR program and helped me. Technology took away from a lot of the observation skills. A  good portion of medical school training is spent in diagnostics and observations of patients. Those just can’t be done simultaneously while also working through documentation requirements.

Hopefully, programs like chronic care management and other things that try to reintroduce an experience that the patient feels comfortable in talking and sharing information and how that’s captured — I’m hoping that we can blunt some of the negative impacts that EMRs had. But I would say that if I ever had to be reincarnated, I would not go back into building any piece of software for ambulatory healthcare. That was a very painful pioneering pathway to walk.

Do EHR vendors get blamed for too many clicks and too much pointless information collection instead of those parties on the back end who require collecting that information before paying providers?

Yes. I would have to side with the EMR vendors on this one. It’s not their fault. It’s Washington, DC that creates the product road maps for vendors now. It’s not what users want.

Users want a certain amount of clicking so that they can document, recall, and have that information available for the next visit or for other providers. There’s real fundamental and foundational value to EMRs. But the direction they’ve taken in terms of usability, unfortunately, was hijacked by those that were writing the checks for them in the first place. Under ARRA,  the government was paying for them, but as a result of them paying for them, they were able to create what they were going to be under Meaningful Use.

There’s always a balance here. We are better off that we now have EMRs, undeniably. You’re in a far better place in being able to record this information a way that we can learn it more rapidly off the science of healthcare and treating those that have disease.

The disadvantage is that we’ve made the billing system on par with the IRS tax code. We’ve made it so complicated that it’s very difficult to do an effective visit with the necessary amount of documentation in a way that demonstrates what took place such that it could be reimbursed on par for what happened. I’m hoping that we’ll eventually get through this, but I’m worried about the overall physician dissatisfaction with their job as we go through this lonely period of transition.

Are consumers really gaining power, demanding their data, and becoming involved as participants in their own care or are we just wishfully thinking that was the case?

I think it’s slowly happening. The best chance that we have in terms of developing technologies for patients is that patients are becoming more consumer aware. That to me is probably the biggest weapon that we have. The patient is probably the greatest sleeping giant in all of healthcare. When you go through Uber or a good banking scenario or a good restaurant experience, you understand how brands compete for your business, your attention, and the right to serve you. They see that as a privilege. That’s how good businesses become great businesses.

Healthcare has had the patient lag, where they’ve been more passive and they’ve not really felt like they’re in an empowered position. I think a lot of things will start to accumulate to hit a tipping point where the patient will be more in a position of a consumer. When that light bulb goes off, the technology that they’re experiencing healthcare in needs to be more on par with other things that they experience in their lives.

The biggest advantage to the payer, the provider, and the patient is that when you look at where healthcare falls down, it doesn’t fall down in a science problem. It falls down in to an adherence and data-sharing problem. It’s not like we need better cures — we just really need to implement more effectively the ones we’ve already discovered.

Where do you see the company and the industry in the next 5-10 years?

We’ll be making more decisions in real time. Things like IBM Watson and other types of analytics that will be under the hood … we’ll  see like a TurboTax for health. These things have happened, so you need to do these things.

The problem with healthcare that we’re going to finally get our hands around over the next 10 years is, how do I go do those things? If somebody tells me to get an MRI, who’s going to do that for me? Innovation is going to start to fill in this last mile of putting the things that need to get done to actually getting done and being tracked. That will start to figure its way out over the next 10 years, principally because it’s being funded against something that is challenging our economy, where 86 percent of the dollars are being spent out there to manage chronic disease. If we don’t get our hands around it, we will end up breaking both the legs of the US economy.

What will change is that vendors, payers, and providers will figure out how to play nicely with the patient who ultimately is writing a big part of the check, whether in taxes or insurance premiums. They will start to find an experience to where they’re now more engaged. Not in vendor classic term of engaged, but making them a more efficient component of the healthcare equation.

HIStalk Interviews Jeff Zucker, CEO, MyDirectives

Jeff Zucker is CEO and co-founder of MyDirectives of Richardson, TX.

Tell me about yourself and the company.

The company is formally known as ADVault. The AD stands for advance directive. We are singularly focused on the world of digital, emergency critical and advance care planning.

We started in 2007 and stayed in stealth mode for about five and a half years, doing a lot of research, development, and pilot testing inside hospitals and community centers and with off-the-street consumers to zero in on this fundamental challenge that’s existed for over 40 years – the desire for everyone to have an advance care plan when they need them and where doctors can find them.

We often put a lot of pressure on a very tense situation in emergency rooms by trying to get patients to create plans when it’s a little too late. That creates additional stress and strain on the patient, family, and care team that’s trying to serve them. We’re focused on giving consumers confidence that they can digitize their voice and have their advance care plan heard anywhere in the world, at any time.

While the healthcare world talks about patient-centered care, we say consumer-centered care because none of us really know when we’re going to become a patient. We want to live with confidence that, if and when we become a patient, our voice and plan can be found. That the medical teams will have some insight into our preferences, values, and care goals, and that that can contribute to a better medical experience that will value and honor the wishes of the consumer.

Our consumer-facing platform, MyDirectives.com, went live in 2012 and now has users in all 50 states and in over 30 countries just through word of mouth, the social media tree, and the health insurance and hospital ecosystem partners that have jumped on board since we started.

We went live a year ago with MyDirectives mobile, and that’s exclusively with the folks at Apple. We felt confident in the stability and the consistency of the Apple platform, and the fact that Apple let us give consumers confidence that, for example, in a cell phone environment, even if their phone was locked, they have the option to put some key information about their emergency care plan in front of the lock screen on their phone. Paramedics and ER doctors can push a button, communicate with your legal healthcare agents, and get access to your care plan. We have been very pleased with the early reaction from consumers to MyDirectives mobile.

How else have you marketed the service?

Our marketing is broad-based and multi-faceted. There’s no one way to communicate with every consumer, so we have to rely on consumers talking to other consumers. We have to rely on doctors and nurses. We use the hospital administrative ecosystem. We rely on health insurance plans to make it clear that the creation of an emergency critical advance care plan is a great way for the plan to help their beneficiaries’ voices be heard if there’s an emergency. Health plans are usually contacted by hospitals for insurance verification and it’s a great opportunity for the health plan to say, “Hey, Jeff has a plan. We suggest you go find it and use it.”

We have to bring in all the stakeholders in order to make a big change. Our view is that if this were an easy solution, it would have been done already. The problem is a 40-year-old problem. The first living will was created in 1969 and it’s been a social problem ever since. Because it’s been a problem for such a long time, it can’t be solved overnight. Our view is that we need all these stakeholders to spread the word. It’s the payers, the providers, the consumers themselves, and forward-thinking technology companies like Apple that are finding new ways to normalize a concept. We are very excited by the reaction, but recognize we have a long way to go.

How many users do you have?

The easy answer is we don’t have enough. There are 190 million people in America over the age of 18 and we want every one of them to have a plan and, more importantly, live with confidence that they won’t be a stranger if they have an accident sometime, somewhere. None of us know when we might have an accident, or where that accident will occur, and so it’s a very logical concept to say, “Responsible adults plan.” I don’t think when we went live that we expected the social tree to extend around the world as quickly as it did. We’ve tracked it and see friends and family signing up across the globe. The organic growth has been a great way for us to have a real world focus group, if you will.

How has the federal push towards greater patient engagement helped?

It’s an exciting time to be in the digital health space. We’re at the convergence of a consumer-driven digital world and a healthcare public policy world that’s forced into reform and innovation. We’re at the intersection of the two with a very important voice, the voice of the consumer.

Regardless of the administration in power, I think all of our elected leaders and the administration that supports them have realized that the more meaningful the healthcare experience, the better the outcome. The government has created some ways, some of them better than others, to try to encourage a very slow-moving industry to adopt innovative healthcare technology much more swiftly.

The federal government’s been great at pushing that. As with most things, the government responds to advances in the private sector, and then the private sector responds to advances in the legislative world. The combination, the iterative parallel processing of the two, is incredibly important and we’re very excited about what we’re seeing in 2016 and what we hope to see in the next few years. The Meaningful Use rules, specifically, have been very good at focusing attention and opening people’s minds to the fact that there might be a better way to do something.

How have providers reacted?

The providers that we have talked to, as you would expect, fall along a continuum. No one hospital moves in lockstep. They’re made up of great people with varied backgrounds. Some of them adopt innovation faster than others and so every organization has a challenge to move at a pace. The fact is that, because this is the only thing that we do as a company, we are crystal clear and incredibly focused on some very simple concepts. Every consumer deserves to live with confidence they can have their voice heard if they have an emergency, and most people don’t have a problem with that statement.

If you don’t have a problem with that statement, then the question becomes, how do you go about giving every consumer confidence that in your particular hospital, or the 15 million beneficiaries in your particular health insurance plan, or the 300,000 employees at your company that have self-funded insurance, how does your population live with confidence that they can get their voice heard?

We use technology to solve that problem. We don’t go into a room and force technology on people and say take it or leave it. We go into a room and explain that we have this human interest goal to enable people to live with confidence that they won’t be a stranger, to get rid of that fear that somehow they’re going to get sucked into a system and someone else is going to make decisions for them and they’re going to lose control in an emergency. We know that the number of people that are admitted into hospitals that have a degree of impairment in decision-making capabilities is significant. The inability to communicate or understand creates a situation where mistakes can be made, confusion can be had, and people aren’t on the same page. We know that’s not efficient. It’s also just not great outcomes.

How does your technology integrate with EHRs?

We have a variety of different integration protocols that a hospital can use to touch our database to find the digital care plan a person may have created in advance. If the person has created it, we digitally send a secure link that is populated into the EHR for that hospital.

There are a variety of integration paths that conform to global standards that hospitals can choose from. We don’t tell them what to do, obviously. We are ubiquitous. We don’t really care what EHR platform they’re on and we don’t care which integration method they use. We’re very intently focused in making sure that we don’t burden the EHR platforms. They’ve got way too many things to do as it is, so we take on that work for ourselves. We are the only MU-certified advance care planning module certified to be in an EHR.

Our singular goal is that hospitals have access to the plans created by consumers and that they open them, access them, and use them in a way that respects the preferences, values, and care goals of that consumer. If the person doesn’t have an advance care plan, then we offer hospitals the opportunity to use our system to help consumers create them. Instead of the labor-intensive process and the costly process of counseling and advising people on site in a stressful situation, we can email them or text them a link and they can create it at home. One of our advisors, former Senate majority leader Bill Frist, MD — who as a cardiologist has seen lots of trauma around the world — perhaps put it best when he said, “These issues are kitchen table issues more than they’re operating table issues.”

How does your technology stand up against the typical complaint about advance directives; i.e. that nobody in the hospital knows about them and the family doesn’t know where they’re kept?

Those complaints are real. The research on advance directives and the problems with advance directives have been very well documented and they’re multi-faceted. We’re very proud of the fact that the HIS world and the digital technology world has, in the case of emergency critical and advance care planning, allowed us to bring a solution to market that’s not just the digitization of a paper form. So much of the early wave of the Internet was, let’s just cut down the bricks and mortar and do online the stuff that we did and we’ll scale it faster. That wasn’t enough for us. The entire experience needed to be recreated. The entire context in which you asked it needed to be recreated. Our solution has innovation in not just technology, not just the clinical experience, not just in marketing, not just in the family experience, but in all those areas.

We recognize that people in the paper-based world have challenges with paper-based documents. We encourage them to try the digital experience, and if they think their paper-based document is better, keep it. We want everyone to live with confidence that their voice can be heard, so we’re thrilled if you’ve got a paper-based document that you love and can be easily accessed. We’ll even help you. You can attach it to a digital account in our system and we’ll do our best to help get that into the hands of the hospital if they need it.

We encourage you to try to answer our questions and personalize it with some video messages. It will help others know that it’s you that did it, that you were in your right mind and you weren’t under stress. That you were clearly acknowledging that these were your preferences, values, and goals of care, and these are the people that you want to speak for you. The digital world gives us time- and date-stamping opportunities and markers so that there’s no question of when you made your wishes known. It’s a much more clear and convincing process.

What will the next five years hold for the company?

In the near future, our strategy continues to be focused and simple — to make sure the technology we’ve already deployed is safe and secure, meeting or exceeding the expectations we’ve put on our hospital and consumer partners. We’re trying to raise the bar even more and excite the consumer marketplace with even more fun features that will give them the confidence that their emergency critical advance care plan is a thorough and accurate reflection of their preferences, values, and goals.

We work very hard to add hospitals and do that in conjunction with the HIEs, ACOs, and EHR platforms that serve them. We are aggressively working to integrate into the healthcare system so that providers can pull the plan if the consumer can’t push it.

With all of the innovation that’s happened in the last few years in healthcare as a whole, and the phenomenal success that cloud computing has brought to innovation in healthcare, it’s amazing to me to even start to think about what healthcare will look like three to five years from now. The cloud, for example, was around in a lot of industries before it hit healthcare. We’ve been at the forefront of the effort to try to push comfort in healthcare with cloud technology, especially with regard to its safety and security. There’s got to be efficacy around the information and the data that we share, and complete transparency to the consumer so that they know they’re in charge of their plan.

It’s important for us that the cloud continue to succeed and grow, and help normalize behavior in healthcare so that we don’t go through the expensive process of siloing data, replicating in hundreds of places the same information, which creates versioning problems, unnecessary paperwork and regulations, and wastes the time of doctors and nurses. We’re trying to make things easier and if we continue to focus on the fact that what we are doing helps ensure that a consumer’s voice can be heard if they have an emergency, then everything else becomes pretty clear.

Do you have any final thoughts?

We continue to challenge the leaders in healthcare that use the phrase “patient -entered healthcare” to back it up with the rules, regulations, policies, procedures, and workflows that reinforce that. It is fundamentally important that we practice what we preach. If we truly care about the voice of the consumer, then we have to do everything we possibly can to make sure that we’re hearing that voice, that we’re asking people to digitize that voice well in advance, because obviously the most chaotic part of the healthcare continuum is when you’re in an emergency situation where you probably can’t communicate.

Have we done anything in society to make sure that the Terri Schiavo situation can’t happen again? We don’t think society has done enough to make sure that experience doesn’t happen again. We can ensure that experience can’t happen again if we have confidence that every decision-making adult has created a plan, shared it, updated it, and verified it. We trust the medical community to take that information and create the treatment plans and protocols to meet those goals. The Terri Schiavo situation was terrible for everyone involved, but the only person who never had an opinion they could express about it was Terri herself. We’re not so focused on what her outcome was or wasn’t. We’re focused on the fact that she didn’t get her voice heard and it was her life.

Whether you have a car accident and you’re in the hospital for a couple of days and just want to go home sooner, or you’re in a chronic situation, or you’ve been recently diagnosed with something that’s incredibly serious, or you have an accident … we should not live in fear that somehow we’re going to lose control of our care.

HIStalk Interviews Hank Jones, III, Technology Lawyer

Henry W. “Hank” Jones, III is an attorney in private practice and owner of Intersect Tech. Consulting of Houston, TX.

Tell me about yourself and your firm.

I’m a 36-year lawyer in information technology who works as a midwife, birthing transactions and products, usually software or e-commerce. I’ve been in six companies, full-time on the exec team of three in blended roles doing firefighting, utility infielder multi-department tasks, sales, and product design. Coming from an intellectual property background, then doing more and more in healthcare over the 36 years.

We first connected from your comments about market research firms. What do you think about their methodologies and potential conflicts of interest?

Too many customers of IT in every domain, medical or otherwise, are unfortunately naïve that market research is both necessary and insufficient, at least for significant transactions, for multiple reasons. Number one, their methodologies and, therefore and their goals and missions are limited. Number two, there are necessary data, if you’re trying to be safe and excellent and surviving on transactions for a long time, they’re really beyond the market research companies’ skills or traditional efforts. In particular, failure analysis, customer disputes, litigation, and government regulatory filings.

The occasional project leader, IT manager, sourcing "professional," or even worse, healthcare professionals venturing into an IT transaction for the first time, don’t know what they don’t know. Unknown unknowns can be mission critical in choosing what the scope of the transaction should be, how you do the selection exercise, and what negotiating plan or terms and conditions you need. The market research firms vary among themselves significantly on their skill, their processes, and how they get paid. Even then, to do any kind of medium- or large-sized transaction, it’s not enough.

How common is it that companies have legal skeletons in their closets that prospects should know about?

Actual lawsuits are intermittent, but necessary market knowledge. The real question is, what’s the risk profile for the individual transaction and proposed solution? Which involves, number one, looking at other competing vendors’ track records. Number two, disputes that never got to litigation, which always outweigh the quantity that actually get to litigation. Number three, arbitration and mediation. Most stuff never goes to court. Number four, the latest move to automation with the stimulus money, etc.

Many IT customers don’t understand that there’ve been massive sea changes in how the technologies get built upstream and under the hood. They don’t know that every deliverable is a hybrid with many components from many owners. Many don’t know that a lot of what gets delivered was designed using tools and languages that come from third-, fourth-, fifth-tier removed vendor who built good stuff, but it may or may not be available long term. It may or may not have been customized to a significant degree. Further, there’s open source in everything now. Not only in testing activity, but actually in the deliverable.

Too many customers are using 1980s and 1990s assumptions that were then valid regarding software development and content that are archaic and therefore somewhat dangerous now. You wouldn’t use old virus scanning software on your PC for your house to know what’s on the inside. Similarly, the procurement processes and the project plans, negotiation skills, the contract provisions and exhibits that healthcare providers want now should reflect modern, appropriate technology norms, which have changed in the last five or 10 years.

How often do company executives or founders get into legal disputes with their boards or investors?

It depends on the size and age of the company. It’s very common to have a founder displaced after taking an additional round of investment. It’s common to have management teams nudged out, and often financially rewarded for it, after a merger as opposed to an initial venture cap round. It’s even more common in software now.

A third factor that’s newer is the large software-only private equity firms, which have a ton of gunpowder. There’s three or four or five of them that only do software company acquisitions and radical overhauling. They take best practices with an elite specialist consultant team and then do mash-ups. We’re seeing that with the McKesson and e-MDs products getting smooshed together on an ambulatory level, for example. 

In Austin, where I just moved from, there’s a PE company with $16 billion who are doing 20 or 30 transactions a year. Many of them are mid-sized companies, but including some whales like Misys out of London, the deal they did a while ago. Greenway got taken private, so we don’t know their financial disclosures any more.

Everyone should assume that the vendor isn’t who it will be at the end of the expected useful duration of a product. My metaphor is that you and your significant other go out for dinner and a movie and the babysitter has outsourced and subcontracted by the time you come back. Somebody else is watching over your kids.

Is it fair for publications to sensationalize the details about a lawsuit that’s just been filed even though they have only one side of the story at that point?

There’s a problem of inadequate business journalism. There are tons of interesting action items for HIT managers in those 960 Epic-Tata pleadings, but it takes a lot of effort, and frankly, domain expertise, to sift and parse and differentiate what’s normal or not in the legal environment. The splash — yellow journalism would be the technical term — is a problem, but I would say the larger problem is inadequate follow-up and inadequate domain translation. There’s another problem too, which is that things get sealed, although I’ve had some success over the last couple of negotiations with judges later having them unseal some things, one of which was a medical software OEM deal.

What are your thoughts about Epic, Cerner, and other companies that make their employees agree to arbitration rather than labor lawsuits as a condition of ongoing employment?

I’m not a labor lawyer, so I don’t think my comments are that useful. It’s clear that in all parts of US industry, arbitration has been a mega-trend. There’s been push-back in every industry of it being, in some contexts, suppressive and unrealistic.

Real business people and lawyers, however — back on health transactions and other IT transactions in every industry — know that a careful scalpel in contracting, meaning a sharp pen, is a useful tool because what you want is to see prevention processes, governance clarifications, and then dispute-handling processes. The IT outsourcing, multi-year contracts have for years contained customized processes to deal with disputes. Over a period of time, priorities, technology, and the leadership economics are going to shift somewhat.

What people should be doing — and a few smart, creative ones do, but most don’t — is port the transactional tools, the terms, the rules of a contractual relationship, from outsourcing into pure software licensing, on the argument that the software’s going to change, ownership may change, the features are going to change, the security specs are going to change. Why not treat software not as a physical product, but as an evolving thing that it realistically is? Particularly in healthcare where you’ve got changing regulations, security specs, and patches that are more important from the privacy stuff. ADR should be for us in HIT a detailed, customized, thoughtful exhibit in every contract, rather than a two-sentence paragraph that nobody looks at. That’s like ignoring anesthesia in a prep for surgery.

Are patent trolls a big problem in health IT?

Yes. There’s lots of economics, there’s studies on that. The America Invents Act did not solve it. The Eastern District of Texas is still a whorehouse. Not La Grange, where the film with Burt Reynolds and Dolly Parton came from. The judges went to the Dallas bar and recruited the work. There’s not yet a legislative fix. It’s a problem that’s broader, although most visible in technology. A lot of people have worked on that. 

I used to be vice-president of intellectual property development for a $3.5 billion revenue per year company. I’m not really a patent specialist, but I know and work intermittently with people who really are deep in this. It’s still a problem that in healthcare is inadequately understood by customers who don’t know that a shotgun, financially speaking, could be placed to the head of their supplier. In particular, do the hospitals require due diligence by their people and then contractual warranties and insurance purchasing by providers, because patent expenses and threats to their vendors upstream from these third parties are a realistic business concern. It’s not even on the checklist.

A big HIT transaction is like a major surgery. A pacemaker installation, if you want to be metaphorical about it. Have they worked up the patent risk and risk mitigation scenario of each prospective vendor and worked that into their spreadsheet or their evaluation? Some vendors are, and some vendors aren’t, holding their own tools, munitions, and ammo in terms of patents and patent licenses or membership in patent-sharing defense arrangements. There’s a publicly traded company that all it does is provide a shared defense. That tells you that the need is that large, that people could commercialize this reactive requirement.

Do you have any final thoughts?

My hunch — and my possible book, as I look at expanding that 3,000-word article about avoiding health software heart attacks — is whether the industry has a problem with assigning, in effect, pre-med students to do neurosurgery. The observation by many HIT specialists is that a lot of providers only plan and then procure their solutions intermittently. Therefore, they attempt to negotiate against vendors who are professional and have a different set of objectives.

I had a software manager at a very large academic institution come to me and say, "Please help us. My sourcing people know sutures and Band-Aids, but not medium- or large-scale software transactions." It’s a minority of transactions that get done well, resulting in HIT organizations having operational health risks that don’t happen in other industries.

There’s a majority view that’s whispered or shared over drinks that because so many healthcare organizations are relatively new at automating, they have the naiveté of thinking that it’s like any other skill. CIOs  who are fine human beings, very smart, or physicians who aren’t careerists in IT might not have the transactional, life cycle, and vendor management experience that CIOs do in other industries. This is hard. You could argue that health software and health IT is harder because it’s in an environment different than other industries, with more regulation, more change, more third-party roles, government paying for some, and health privacy.

You need more skills and ruggedness in your contracts, supply planning, and IT strategy than in finance, manufacturing, or consumer goods. Maybe I can find some non-profit funding and lure some graduate students to work on their practicum or internships to do records requests. Some of the contracts that I’ve pulled from government hospitals under sunshine laws show work and current supply chains that extend maybe to the dangerous degree that would be unacceptable to the boards of companies in other organizations.

You don’t want to buy the first car off the manufacturing line of a new model. You don’t want to be a first patient of a newly-minted surgeon. Do you want to be a manager of a healthcare provider where the EHR was the first and only IT transaction by somebody? It’s hard.

I know one systems integration vendor who says CIO secretly stands for Career Is Over, because the demands are greater than the time, the funding, and the commercial support in a lot of cases. Unlike some other industries, people haven’t gone and done the epidemiology, the autopsies. In other industries, the selection exercises are way more diligent. They are larger than the selection process. The planning on the front end. Exhibits are process specific, twice as long than in other types of transactions.

What happens is that in a lot of these EHR deals, the customer becomes a captive. That’s evidenced, literally, by the documents that have surfaced in some of the materials that I’ve hunted up and would be the anchor or the database of my possible book. All that’s before the regulatory changes, the more open source software in there. Doctor Gawande’s great book “Better” is the watchword for all of us. A lot of organizations, at least in HIT, are not even at “good” yet. They’re trying to be competent and they’re striving, but whether they’ve gotten to good, much less any best practices, is a real question. Particularly when you drill down and do the lab tests on the actual documents that people are actually operating under.

I’ve pulled out some half a billion dollar, 10-year EHR deals to smaller ambulatory ones and specialty groups. It’s scary how weak the supply chain is in healthcare software as opposed to some other industries. You wouldn’t rely, you wouldn’t invest in it if you knew the standards of others knowing the delta of the difference.