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	<title>Comments on: HIStalk Interviews Susanne Madden, President and CEO, The Verden Group</title>
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	<description>Healthcare IT News and Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: Spero Melior</title>
		<link>http://histalk2.com/2008/11/05/histalk-interviews-susanne-madden-president-and-ceo-the-verden-group/comment-page-1/#comment-2581</link>
		<dc:creator>Spero Melior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mr. HISTalk, sorry for so many posts, but something else just occurred to me.

OM, perhaps you&#039;re thinking about ICD-10-PCS (ICD-10 Procedure Coding System).

You&#039;re right, for procedures, ICD-10-PCS is a compositional system and nothing like the procedure codes in Volume 3 of ICD-9-CM.

However, for diagnoses, the structure of ICD-10-CM has not changed from ICD-9-CM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. HISTalk, sorry for so many posts, but something else just occurred to me.</p>
<p>OM, perhaps you&#8217;re thinking about ICD-10-PCS (ICD-10 Procedure Coding System).</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, for procedures, ICD-10-PCS is a compositional system and nothing like the procedure codes in Volume 3 of ICD-9-CM.</p>
<p>However, for diagnoses, the structure of ICD-10-CM has not changed from ICD-9-CM.</p>
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		<title>By: Spero Melior</title>
		<link>http://histalk2.com/2008/11/05/histalk-interviews-susanne-madden-president-and-ceo-the-verden-group/comment-page-1/#comment-2579</link>
		<dc:creator>Spero Melior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ll give examples of how ICD-10-CM is in fact &#039;precompiled&#039;, just as ICD-9-CM is.  Here are two pre-compiled codes from ICD-10-CM, taken directly from the 23MB monster at NCHS&#039; web site:

E08.331 Diabetes mellitus due to underlying condition with moderate nonproliferative diabetic retinopathy with macular edema 

E08.339 Diabetes mellitus due to underlying condition with moderate nonproliferative diabetic retinopathy without macular edema

These codes are pre-compiled combinations of two diseases (diabetes mellitus due to underlying condition and non-proliferative diabetic retinopathy), a severity modifier for one of the diseases (moderate applies to retinopathy), and the presence vs. absence of a manifestation of one of the diseases (macular edema is a manifestation of the retinopathy).

I did not in any &quot;build&quot; or &quot;compile&quot; these ICD-10-CM codes out of more basic units.  Nor did anyone else.

I copied and pasted them directly from their pre-compiled glory right out of the PDF file that is the official release format of the 2007 ICD-10-CM draft.

I give proof at the Better Diagnosis Coding blog that NCHS creates and maintains ICD-10-CM using a word processor!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll give examples of how ICD-10-CM is in fact &#8216;precompiled&#8217;, just as ICD-9-CM is.  Here are two pre-compiled codes from ICD-10-CM, taken directly from the 23MB monster at NCHS&#8217; web site:</p>
<p>E08.331 Diabetes mellitus due to underlying condition with moderate nonproliferative diabetic retinopathy with macular edema </p>
<p>E08.339 Diabetes mellitus due to underlying condition with moderate nonproliferative diabetic retinopathy without macular edema</p>
<p>These codes are pre-compiled combinations of two diseases (diabetes mellitus due to underlying condition and non-proliferative diabetic retinopathy), a severity modifier for one of the diseases (moderate applies to retinopathy), and the presence vs. absence of a manifestation of one of the diseases (macular edema is a manifestation of the retinopathy).</p>
<p>I did not in any &#8220;build&#8221; or &#8220;compile&#8221; these ICD-10-CM codes out of more basic units.  Nor did anyone else.</p>
<p>I copied and pasted them directly from their pre-compiled glory right out of the PDF file that is the official release format of the 2007 ICD-10-CM draft.</p>
<p>I give proof at the Better Diagnosis Coding blog that NCHS creates and maintains ICD-10-CM using a word processor!</p>
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		<title>By: Spero Melior</title>
		<link>http://histalk2.com/2008/11/05/histalk-interviews-susanne-madden-president-and-ceo-the-verden-group/comment-page-1/#comment-2578</link>
		<dc:creator>Spero Melior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You couldn&#039;t possibly be more wrong.  ICD-10-CM is based on the same, 1960s era, classification technology of ICD-9-CM.

It has hierarchical codes, NOS and NEC codes, a maximum of 10 children for each non-leaf code, and so on.

I wonder if you could give me an example of what you mean.  There is no compositionality at all.

What character in what position identifies all patients with diabetic retinopathy, for example?

The answer is that you can&#039;t identify all patients with diabetic retinopathy in that manner.

What is the set of rules or syntax for composing an ICD-10-CM code?  

The medical content (ie, new diseases) in ICD-10-CM is updated, but you can&#039;t possibly say the technical structure underlying ICD-10-CM is any different than ICD-9-CM.

NCHS delivers ICD-10-CM as a 23MB, free-text blob.  You can&#039;t even import it into a database table!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You couldn&#8217;t possibly be more wrong.  ICD-10-CM is based on the same, 1960s era, classification technology of ICD-9-CM.</p>
<p>It has hierarchical codes, NOS and NEC codes, a maximum of 10 children for each non-leaf code, and so on.</p>
<p>I wonder if you could give me an example of what you mean.  There is no compositionality at all.</p>
<p>What character in what position identifies all patients with diabetic retinopathy, for example?</p>
<p>The answer is that you can&#8217;t identify all patients with diabetic retinopathy in that manner.</p>
<p>What is the set of rules or syntax for composing an ICD-10-CM code?  </p>
<p>The medical content (ie, new diseases) in ICD-10-CM is updated, but you can&#8217;t possibly say the technical structure underlying ICD-10-CM is any different than ICD-9-CM.</p>
<p>NCHS delivers ICD-10-CM as a 23MB, free-text blob.  You can&#8217;t even import it into a database table!</p>
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		<title>By: OM</title>
		<link>http://histalk2.com/2008/11/05/histalk-interviews-susanne-madden-president-and-ceo-the-verden-group/comment-page-1/#comment-2576</link>
		<dc:creator>OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Another way to say this is that ICD-10 is as much like HL-7 as it is like ICD-9.  An ICD-10 code is like a (version 2) HL-7 message, with various places in the code signifying different information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another way to say this is that ICD-10 is as much like HL-7 as it is like ICD-9.  An ICD-10 code is like a (version 2) HL-7 message, with various places in the code signifying different information.</p>
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		<title>By: OM</title>
		<link>http://histalk2.com/2008/11/05/histalk-interviews-susanne-madden-president-and-ceo-the-verden-group/comment-page-1/#comment-2575</link>
		<dc:creator>OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is a great interview.  I think she is spot on.  

Spero-Melior, I don&#039;t know what you are trying to say.  ICD-9 is a pre-compiled coding system.  ICD-10 is not, so to talk about the number of codes in each system is irrelevant.  An electronic medical record could theoretically code the ICD-10 code from  clinical information in the EMR without the physician having to actually choose a specific code.  This is much more difficult using ICD-9, precisely because it is pre-compiled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great interview.  I think she is spot on.  </p>
<p>Spero-Melior, I don&#8217;t know what you are trying to say.  ICD-9 is a pre-compiled coding system.  ICD-10 is not, so to talk about the number of codes in each system is irrelevant.  An electronic medical record could theoretically code the ICD-10 code from  clinical information in the EMR without the physician having to actually choose a specific code.  This is much more difficult using ICD-9, precisely because it is pre-compiled.</p>
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